There is certainly a strain of leftist totalitarianism prevalent on HN, which suppresses any news not in sync with their "we good, they bad" world view.
A strain of leftist totalitarianism which - as it turns out - originally came about as a result of Russian (well, Soviet, but still) political interference. Isn't that deliciously ironic? Of course the memetic infection has been self-propagating for a very long time, also merging with other strains originating from e.g. Maoist China at the peak of the Cultural Revolution. It's a bit like a zombie invasion which has no real underlying goals of its own besides memetic success - but the Russian propaganda component was definitely there originally!
Missing from this post - a source and also the total num of articles used as source data. I’d bet that the number of articles in general have increased by a lot.
See e.g. Vladimir Bukovsky's Judgment in Moscow, currently being reissued in English translation. It just goes to prove that Russian interference in Western politics is nothing new, much less out of the ordinary. But the direction it points towards is very different from what you hear these days in the mainstream media!
Thank you, that's seems both substantive and evidence-based.
In my mind, the important question is: to what degree, in what forms, and backed by what evidence, does this interference actually in fact continue today, and (as you say) how closely does this align to the narrative of interference that is presented (through various channels, by various actors, coordinated or independent) to people today?
The interference need not continue today for the related memes to still be active. They've simply become zombie memes and have been actively spreading as such, perhaps being quite independent of any outside interference. Similarly, the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution has been over for decades in China itself and the Gang of Four has even lost political favor in the PRC, but the memes which have been boosted by it ("Marx, Mao, Marcuse!" and the like) are very much active in the West. The unrolled Twitter thread that's been linked in a sibling comment is highly instructive in this regard!
Some zombie memes may still be active, but we also have a fresh set of Russia memes that are pushed every day by the three letter agencies, media, and individual people (with infected brains) on various social media platforms. It's quite fascinating to watch how it all works in action, human brains act very much like computers that are attached to a network - just as a computer virus infects a machine, which in turn infects other machines it comes in contact with, the same thing can be observed (via comments on internet forums) happening with human beings as they both enthusiastically spread and defend the meme.
If anyone happens to know of anyone who is studying this phenomenon specifically in today's context, or if there is even a general name for the phenomenon, please post a comment.
What's interesting is that this poster, supposedly an FBI agent, is pushing an anti-Russia narrative in his other posts. Kind of ironic that the same organization that claims Russia is manipulating social media is doing exactly the same thing themselves.
I've rarely heard an argument from anyone that manipulating people, influencing election outcomes etc via social media is bad. It's bad because the Russians are doing it to them - it's okay if they are doing it to others. The same goes for military invasions under false pretenses, corrupting politicians, large scale spying and whatever else you can think off. Very few people have a moral problem with the actions, they have a "hey, this doesn't benefit me" problem.
Not too long ago, we (America) were bragging about our ability to influence foreign elections[1]. Everyone seems to conveniently forget that whenever Russian "meddling" comes up these days.
American media runs the ideological spectrum (Mother Jones to The Atlantic to National Review to Fox News). They aren’t a unified voice, so that representation would include contradicting messages.
It seems like people just choose the one that helps their strawman and labels that as “AMERICA”.
Very few of them are openly against using the military, cultural, economic power the US has to force others to bend to their will. They may disagree on what direction to push others in, but they agree that they have the right (or even duty) to push them. Which is totally understandable.
Very few people see themselves as villains, pretty much everybody wants to make the world a better place. What "better" means and how to get there, that's where they part ways.
If you think about it, media is also largely how America is represented to Americans themselves.
Think of the typical American's mental model of America (and the rest of the world) - where does the actual content of the model we hold in our brain come from? A mixture of personal experiences, conversations, TV, internet, books, as well as the brain itself - automatically (and without our knowledge) filling gaps, adding color and detail, based on a complex set of heuristic processes that we barely understand.
Take the Russia hacking the election meme for example - next time you read someone making an assertion one way or another, ask them what the source of their information is, the conclusive and specific physical evidence that proves their belief. In my experience, at best, you will get a link to an x00 page report filled with allegations, you won't even be able to get a vague description of any specific details that was conclusively proven, because that isn't stored in their mental model. (edit: or, as seen in this very thread when others have asked such a question, "evidence" that is not even remotely conclusive, but believed without question, as well as examples of historic non-conclusive evidence planting. In my experience, no amount of demonstration of this happening will ever change people's thinking on the matter - most humans will always continue to believe what their brain tells them, without hesitation - it just feels too real to not believe it, and this is why propaganda is so easy and effective.)
In the linked story, it appears the FBI agent is trying to plant this meme into the minds of 8chan users, hoping it will take root and spread organically there as easily as it has in the broad public.
==Take the Russia hacking the election meme for example==
Isn't it possible that you are the one falling victim to the exact type of thinking you describe? You admit yourself that propaganda is easy and effective. Have you explored that possibility?
==most humans will always continue to believe what their brain tells them, without hesitation==
The embedded assumption in this post is that you have risen above the misinformation, bad mental models and propaganda to assess the "real" truth. How have you managed to overcome the weaknesses that others fall victim to?
It most definitely is a possibility, and your type of thinking is exactly what we need more of.
I assure you I have and continue to explore the possibility, which is why I often reach out to people who seem to believe they have witnessed specific, concrete evidence, to share the specific information they have seen. Alas, despite no shortage of such people, I have yet to encounter one who is willing and able to provide anything beyond a link to an x00 page report full of allegations.
The embedded assumption in this post is that you have risen above the misinformation, bad mental models and propaganda to assess the "real" truth. How have you managed to overcome the weaknesses that others fall victim to?
Apologies if I have given that impression, it was definitely not my intent. I am simply pointing out that there are plenty of people who make strong and specific assertions, but are unable to provide any strong, specific evidence. I have not formed any final conclusions, but the longer this drags on, and the more specific claims I read in the news that are not backed by supporting evidence, it seems fairly reasonable to suspect that the story is not true, if not actually faked (as we now know the Iraq WMD story was faked). I have no particular theory on what the underlying motive might be if this is the case.
If you know of anything I've overlooked, please post here so we can all become more informed.
Are you just picking on a technicality here or do you genuinely believe that the vast majority of the executive would/should feel it's wrong for the US to meddle in foreign elections?
I think it is a stretch to claim that an article from Time magazine about how four American political consultants helped Boris Yeltson win an election is the same as state-sponsored election hacking and interference. I also don't see how this article is equivalent to the entire US "bragging" about anything.
One involves multiple crimes being committed at state-scale (DNC hack [1], RNC hack [2], identity fraud [3]) the other was a consulting contract.
It’s fundamentally different for a hyperpower to do this versus a failed superpower. There is no comparison and as an American it’s in our best interest to utilize our cultural and military hegemony for the best of our interests.
So yes, you’re right but I don’t see it as a bad thing at all.
it’s in our best interest to utilize our cultural and military hegemony for the best of our interests
It is one thing to (through analysis) arrive at the conclusion that people and states don't live up to the ideals of the Golden Rule [0]. It is quite another thing to openly support the idea that the rich and powerful should use their power to further their own interests at the expense of others. Suffice to say that the latter puts you on a different trajectory than the collective body of religious and political thinking since time immemorial, western and eastern alike. Just sayin'.
The mentality of bullies. The US really needs history to teach its people some lessons of humanity. Luck may turn away and smile on other countries, and experience more of these times and the people as a whole may start to learn.
Trying to skew media (elections, opinions, policy) of other countries is something many (most? all?) governments did for centuries. And those activities were not particularly well hidden from citizens.
I think earlier (30+ years ago), most of the rank and file citizens were isolated from such influence and few who were exposed to it, e.g. those doing business abroad, were immunized (by privilege, counter-propaganda or a feeling of a gun at their backs).
I think current manipulation efforts makes elites panic only because those efforts can reach most of the country which makes old countermeasures ineffective. My 2c (I grew up in what is seen today as a totalitarian state).
The US intelligence agencies that - like here - fake evidence to further their own agenda as well as their friendly foreign colleagues? Must be true then i guess.
And as for a infosec company: showing that you found some russian IP or some strings originating from a Windows OS with ru_ru locale is not "evidence". It's making a educated guess at best. In fact, if you read thru some leaked NSA manuals on Wikileaks, the US intelligence agencies specifially teach their tech people how to use such techniques to plant false tracks.
literally NONE of the arguments brought up in that post contradict the facts. Who gives a fuck about how the US government feels towards Edward Snowden? How does that prove that the Dutch are lying? It makes zero goddamn sense.
I'm not sure what post you're reading - but every single one of the arguments in the post contradict a pivotal 'fact' in the anti-Russian, xenophobic propaganda effort.
This article is taking about general hacks targeting
1) the DNC
2) the state department
3) the white house
sometime in the time of mid-late 2014. Just to be clear: i have no doubt that they tried to hack these organizations. Now, wheres the election interference? Apartently they were caught early on, the FBI and other agencies knew about it. So wheres the interference in the election? The DNC leaks on Wikileaks? There is 0 hard evidence that the origin of that leak was russian intelligence. Friendly reminder: John Podesta used "password" as the password for his account. It could have literaly been a 12 year old kid from Armenia, who knows.
During Iraq we offered evidence, including from international sources, proving beyond any doubt that Iraq was developing WMD. We even had published video of "mobile biological weapon laboratories" and information from informants who were literally working on these exact things but secretly feeding us intelligence.
As you [hopefully] know now - it was all fake. There was no WMD, there were no mobile biological weapon labs, there was nothing. The evidence was all fake. The footage we claimed was bio weapons labs was of trailers that produced hydrogen for usage in conventional artillery (as Iraq said all along). Even after we invaded and knew the labs were benign we constantly lied. Rather than repeat our neverending stream of lies, Wiki has them nicely cataloged here [1]. Our ultra secret inside source who revealed his remarkable tale after achieving refugee status in Germany, was actually a Taxi driver in Iraq who knew nothing and had no connection to the government whatsoever, but was apparently a great con man - or, more likely, was an idiot we knew was lying but gave us more "evidence" we could use to achieve the goal of starting a war we wanted.
And this was not just American intelligence. This was American, British, German, and more. Intelligence agencies pursue their own goals and will happily lie, fake, and manipulate people and society to achieve them. We're now aiming for war with Iran. At the same time that Japan's prime minister decides to visit Iran, Iran in an unprecedented act decides to attack a Japanese tanker? Look, our five-eyes intelligence agencies are here to give you all the hot evidence for something that makes no logical sense whatsoever, yet conveniently gives the US absolutely every thing it could possibly want. Amazing isn't it?
Iraq did once have WMDs, namely poison gas that it used against tens of thousands of Iranian civilians... with the help of the CIA.
Today, many Americans have never even heard of the Iran-Iraq War. Those that have often never heard anything other than unsubstantiated American propaganda, particularly the American accusation that Iran was using poison gas against Iraq. An accusation for which there has never been any evidence.
When it comes to the American government and international affairs, any position less than reserved skepticism is totally irresponsible.
Sure they both fall under the category "trying to influence someone through social media". But so does a press release put out over Facebook, and lot of other completely innocuous actions.
If we found out the FBI was systematically spending lots of money to influence our elections people would be pissed.
This comment seems to be ignoring the long and recurring history of the FBI and other government agencies in subverting, persecuting and destroying the lives of those who were peaceful members of left leaning political parties, basically anyone who identified as a communist or socialist... or who knew anyone who identified that way. Or actually, anyone whose political ideals contradicted American corporate interests. That includes in our country and other countries.
This is not to mention the more controversial reality of the close collaboration between US intelligence agencies and the entertainment and education industries.
Yes. Let's not forget that for a good portion of the 20th century the FBI not only explicitly worked against equality and ecology, but also explicitly funded fascist millitants, and domestic terrorism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
Didn't Qanon explicitly self-identify as a "fed"? So it's not exactly news that feds too like to shitpost on the *chans - arguably, they can shitpost better than anyone!
...or the agent isn't the person who took the screenshot. Screencaps of deleted threads are common on chans and it's more likely they got one of those than the original.
If you dig into other discussions about this (the chans were all over this last night) then there are other images that show entire discussions being faked by single IDs. It doesn't guarantee the FBI was behind it themselves, but the evidence is manufactured.
If the agent didn't retrieve the screenshots himself when he easily could have wouldn't that be easily dismissable evidence since the screen grabs could have been falsified in some way?
That's a great point. Someone else could have even modified the page content before taking the screenshot, which would make the modifications undetectable.
It seems like the agent has to claim he took the screenshots himself; otherwise, they are worthless as "evidence."
That's a great point. Someone else could have even modified the page content before taking the screenshot, which would make the modifications undetectable.
It seems like the agent has to claim he took the screenshots himself; otherwise, they are worthless as "evidence."
Exactly. Evidence requires a chain of custody otherwise it is worthless.
I am not a lawyer, but presumably at least part of the reason they're wanting to execute a search warrant on 8chan is to gather evidence with a clear chain of custody.
These screenshots are part of a court filing to get that search warrant. Imagine if I sent in an anonymous tip that my neighbor was running an illegal dogfighting ring, and I included photos of dogs I'd seen in his yard. My possibly-faked photos probably wouldn't stand up in a trial, but they certainly might help convince a judge to sign a search warrant for further investigation.
Not exactly related but how often do you think some form of radicalization happens due to these forums? I don’t visit so I am not sure but it seems like these places are a breeding ground for violence.
I would personally pin the blame on the YouTube recommendation algorithm and the Chans first due to their natural tendency for extremism, even if some of it or even most of it is ironic.
The fact that the Tree of Life shooter posted to Gab before his attack is no accident. He wanted to radicalize others.
I take a view as a paraphrase Sid Meier's Alpha Centuari "Evil lurks onlibe as it has lurked in the streets but it never was the streets which were evil."
Gab is significant because its niche was essentially "Twitter for bigots who are too stupid to dog-whistle." It is the community that is the problem.
What you're speculating is well-documented researchers, and painfully obvious to certain folks of colloquial familiarity with the growth of Internet culture. The best "crash course" I can offer you are two PDFs of research on the subject.
Not only do these forums radicalize participants to violent extremism, their ideology proliferates into, and influences mainstream media, which in turn begins to draw mainstream audiences towards radical violence.[1] This shift in public discourse could have devastating consequences for peace and the stability of our society. There are no more serious threats to civilization, in my estimation.
It's important, also, to remember that these are deliberately amplified propaganda campaigns, not "organic" or popular reactionism.
This radicalization is bought and paid for.[2]
influencers have effectively propagandized to viewers and helped radicalize young people (and normalize bigoted ideas) in the process. In this ecosystem, a range of mainstream conservative and libertarian influencers, self-help gurus, and gaming streamers can ultimately act as gateways to more extremist content.
Just because the US is doing this doesn't mean that Russia isn't doing the same. There is evidence they have done it before [1], plus, why wouldn't they? It's a cheap way and easy way to spread propaganda.
I didn't make any comment at all about whether Russia does the same. I assume that any major power is constantly propagandising its own people, and those of other countries.
The issue is that this propaganda has become a mainstream news story which is:
1) Endlessly repeated on-air by trusted individuals
2) Almost universally accepted as a truth by politicians and pundits despite there being zero concrete evidence of any Russian conspiracy
3) Rarely, if ever, challenged by politicians, pundits or guests on any mainstream news channel.
Okay, I misunderstood, your message seemed to imply Russia doesn't try to spread propaganda online.
You're right, it is blown way out of proportion. Russia is most likely doing it, but yeah, I've never understood the focus on Russia when literally anyone can, and basically everyone tries to influence US politics, many (like Israel, or certain media outlets) do it openly.
There's no evidence. There's a handful of (allegedly) Russian facebook posts / members, and then spurious, inconsequential allegations about specific individuals.
The special counsel is an obvious stitch up which has achieved almost nothing aside from some irrelevant indictments, and which has produced no credible evidence of any conspiracy with Russia.
If your terms of investigation are just 'Russian interference', then you can classify literally anything which comes from a Russian as being 'interference'.
Is my post 'UK interference' in US politics? It's a joke. The entire world is laughing at the US over this.
That's a misrepresentation of the extent of Russia's espionage and propaganda campaigns during the elections. Considering Russia's propensity to kill people on UK soil, you'd think you'd be more willing to accept that their intelligence services can be brazen.
No, no evidence was produced that Trump or his campaign conspired with them. But massive amounts of evidence was produced that Russia tried to influence the election.
That's a misrepresentation of the extent of Russia's espionage and propaganda campaigns during the elections. Considering Russia's propensity to kill people on UK soil, you'd think you'd be more willing to accept that their intelligence services can be brazen.
The Skripal narrative is nonsense too. The whole story is a farce.
No, no evidence was produced that Trump or his campaign conspired with them. But massive amounts of evidence was produced that Russia tried to influence the election.
Having preferred outcomes and posting memes on Facebook isn't a crime under any law - national or international.
If it were just posting memes, there wouldn't be this fiasco in the first place. No, Russia didn't commit any crimes when it came to the propaganda, but the US also isn't committing crimes when they spread propaganda in other countries. Espionage, influence, and intelligence operations can be very effective without necessarily being illegal.
Also, propaganda aside, Russia did certainly commit crimes when it comes to the US politics-targeted hacking performed by their GRU and SVR intelligence departments during 2016.
It seems like Russia is USA's boogeyman. Every time, the establishment want people to believe some narrative they use Russia. Conservatives used Russia and communism throughout the cold war. Surprisingly, so called leftists are doing the same from 2016 onwards, blaming russian influence because their choice of candidate did not win.
You don't need to be a leftist to think the Russian government played a role in influencing the U.S. presidential election when it engaged in a hacking campaign against a candidate.
Can you point to some examples of conservatives who think Russia got Trump elected? If anything, it seems like our news media’s obsession with Trump had a larger role in getting him elected. They gave him nearly 24/7 coverage, and continue to give him that same focus even today.
We know Russia helped a Republican be elected US president in 2016. There's a whole 400+ page report exhaustive going through the available evidence.
"maybe a us president be so gleeful about a foreign country interfering in our elections" isn't a leftist stance. Branding any opposition to the GOP narrative that Russia is "fake news" as leftism is just pure partisan hackery.
In general, selective-outrage leads to selective justice, selective justice leads to tyranny, please think about it next time you read cherry picked conclusions.
Even with that, the investigation -- were not able to establish that
a) Trump directed Russia to do anything
b) the outcome of election was driven by foreign interference
In the mean time, Obama admin did not stop any interference while they knew of attempts. So it was either not significant or it did not help Trump.
Let's not forget, however what has been established:
The whole investigation was partisan, and premised on fake evidence, illegally planted.
Clinton campaign directing and buying fake evidence from foreign powers, to initiate spying on a political opponent -- is exactly the type of foreign and domestic inference, that should have been investigated by a special council.
So that much for 'equal justice' for all.
Mueller's claim that Russia hacked into DNC emails and release damaging truth to US voters, through Wiki leaks -- has not been proven either beyond a reasonable doubt.
You can choose to believe it -- but there is no evidence that was presented to public that clearly established the link.
--
Finally, nobody is branding oposition to GOP as fake news -- what is branded as fake news is:
a) selective-outrage
b) fake claims
c) active suppression of positive news from Trump
d) active purging of conservative voices on social media platforms
e) presenting the left's abuse of judiciary system with never-ending perjury traps -- as 'Justice'. While the outrage against this hijacking of US's judiciary system is labeled as 'obstructing'.
It has been posted before, but a day can't seem to go by without new people being taken by surprise that this type of thing happens.
Information is power, and there are many people in high places that realize it. A modest investment in keeping an eye on your opponent, and ruffling feathers on line is the new border skirmish or airspace invasion.
If you have an odd feeling in the back of your head that someone or something is actively making it more difficult to discuss something without disruption, distraction or usurpation of the public forum; odds are that is exactly what is happening. If it isn't your platform, and it's big enough to attract a large audience, then it becomes increasingly likely somebody else has been bothered to implement some sort of filter.
Is it good, bad, or indifferent? That I leave to the reader's sensibilities. However, in my opinion, there is a growing trend brought about by a tendency for increased centralization where this type of "forum engineering" is increasingly valuable to nation-state actors. Be careful out there folks, and double check your information consumption. The Signal can't be stopped, but it can be made hard to find through all the equivocation.
How can we differentiate between this agent making these postings as an official part of their FBI duties, or making these posts for their own reasons? I know that the screenshots imply that they made these posts while performing their duties, but well I'm at work right now when I'm making this HN comment, and that doesn't mean that my employer instructed me to make this comment.
Is this sanctioned forum sliding, or just a bored government employee shitposting when they're supposed to be working?
The response of the agent's superiors might leak some information as to what is actually going on behind the scenes, if they do respond. But then, any such response should be taken with a massive grain of salt due to the fact that all of this is part of multi-domain operations conducted by the US government and military.
On the topic of fake news and disinformation, what would one do to determine whether this post is disinformation or fake news? Most of the sources cited are to websites I’m unfamiliar with.
All those Putin memes you might find are not accidental either and came earlier..Russia has a long history of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
Some classic Whataboutism right here. Smells like a desperate attempt at deflection to me.
"FBI? But - but - Russia!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
It's a tradition in irc to call someone a "fed". This just legitimates it, :P
We just call 'em glows
Taxpayers money well spent
My own post on this was deleted in less than two minutes (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200354). Hopefully this will stay.
This is extremely important as this topic was cheered on very recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20186775). As it turns out the "evidence" was bullshit.
There is certainly a strain of leftist totalitarianism prevalent on HN, which suppresses any news not in sync with their "we good, they bad" world view.
A strain of leftist totalitarianism which - as it turns out - originally came about as a result of Russian (well, Soviet, but still) political interference. Isn't that deliciously ironic? Of course the memetic infection has been self-propagating for a very long time, also merging with other strains originating from e.g. Maoist China at the peak of the Cultural Revolution. It's a bit like a zombie invasion which has no real underlying goals of its own besides memetic success - but the Russian propaganda component was definitely there originally!
No it's not, that started around 2010 with the Great Awokening. It's being driven by the mainstream media:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1133440945201061888.html
That's pretty interesting. As they say, Meme Magic is real.
Missing from this post - a source and also the total num of articles used as source data. I’d bet that the number of articles in general have increased by a lot.
Could you share what this refers to, and do you have specific conclusive evidence that you could also share?
I would guess he's alluding to Soviet influence on our 60s counterculture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_influence_on_the_peace_...
See e.g. Vladimir Bukovsky's Judgment in Moscow, currently being reissued in English translation. It just goes to prove that Russian interference in Western politics is nothing new, much less out of the ordinary. But the direction it points towards is very different from what you hear these days in the mainstream media!
Thank you, that's seems both substantive and evidence-based.
In my mind, the important question is: to what degree, in what forms, and backed by what evidence, does this interference actually in fact continue today, and (as you say) how closely does this align to the narrative of interference that is presented (through various channels, by various actors, coordinated or independent) to people today?
It's quite fun to think about impartially.
The interference need not continue today for the related memes to still be active. They've simply become zombie memes and have been actively spreading as such, perhaps being quite independent of any outside interference. Similarly, the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution has been over for decades in China itself and the Gang of Four has even lost political favor in the PRC, but the memes which have been boosted by it ("Marx, Mao, Marcuse!" and the like) are very much active in the West. The unrolled Twitter thread that's been linked in a sibling comment is highly instructive in this regard!
Some zombie memes may still be active, but we also have a fresh set of Russia memes that are pushed every day by the three letter agencies, media, and individual people (with infected brains) on various social media platforms. It's quite fascinating to watch how it all works in action, human brains act very much like computers that are attached to a network - just as a computer virus infects a machine, which in turn infects other machines it comes in contact with, the same thing can be observed (via comments on internet forums) happening with human beings as they both enthusiastically spread and defend the meme.
If anyone happens to know of anyone who is studying this phenomenon specifically in today's context, or if there is even a general name for the phenomenon, please post a comment.
There's absolutely no relationship between leftism and the FBI, other than that the FBI targets leftists.
Can you turn that around to determine whether some group is leftist? "Are they targeted by the FBI?" as a test?
What "evidence" does this contradict?
What's interesting is that this poster, supposedly an FBI agent, is pushing an anti-Russia narrative in his other posts. Kind of ironic that the same organization that claims Russia is manipulating social media is doing exactly the same thing themselves.
I've rarely heard an argument from anyone that manipulating people, influencing election outcomes etc via social media is bad. It's bad because the Russians are doing it to them - it's okay if they are doing it to others. The same goes for military invasions under false pretenses, corrupting politicians, large scale spying and whatever else you can think off. Very few people have a moral problem with the actions, they have a "hey, this doesn't benefit me" problem.
Not too long ago, we (America) were bragging about our ability to influence foreign elections[1]. Everyone seems to conveniently forget that whenever Russian "meddling" comes up these days.
http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19960715,00.html
Does Time magazine represent America in this comment?
Yes, along with the rest of American media is how America is represented to non Americans.
American media runs the ideological spectrum (Mother Jones to The Atlantic to National Review to Fox News). They aren’t a unified voice, so that representation would include contradicting messages.
It seems like people just choose the one that helps their strawman and labels that as “AMERICA”.
Very few of them are openly against using the military, cultural, economic power the US has to force others to bend to their will. They may disagree on what direction to push others in, but they agree that they have the right (or even duty) to push them. Which is totally understandable.
Very few people see themselves as villains, pretty much everybody wants to make the world a better place. What "better" means and how to get there, that's where they part ways.
The Jacobin has always been a fan of calling out US imperialism.
If you think about it, media is also largely how America is represented to Americans themselves.
Think of the typical American's mental model of America (and the rest of the world) - where does the actual content of the model we hold in our brain come from? A mixture of personal experiences, conversations, TV, internet, books, as well as the brain itself - automatically (and without our knowledge) filling gaps, adding color and detail, based on a complex set of heuristic processes that we barely understand.
Take the Russia hacking the election meme for example - next time you read someone making an assertion one way or another, ask them what the source of their information is, the conclusive and specific physical evidence that proves their belief. In my experience, at best, you will get a link to an x00 page report filled with allegations, you won't even be able to get a vague description of any specific details that was conclusively proven, because that isn't stored in their mental model. (edit: or, as seen in this very thread when others have asked such a question, "evidence" that is not even remotely conclusive, but believed without question, as well as examples of historic non-conclusive evidence planting. In my experience, no amount of demonstration of this happening will ever change people's thinking on the matter - most humans will always continue to believe what their brain tells them, without hesitation - it just feels too real to not believe it, and this is why propaganda is so easy and effective.)
In the linked story, it appears the FBI agent is trying to plant this meme into the minds of 8chan users, hoping it will take root and spread organically there as easily as it has in the broad public.
==Take the Russia hacking the election meme for example==
Isn't it possible that you are the one falling victim to the exact type of thinking you describe? You admit yourself that propaganda is easy and effective. Have you explored that possibility?
==most humans will always continue to believe what their brain tells them, without hesitation==
The embedded assumption in this post is that you have risen above the misinformation, bad mental models and propaganda to assess the "real" truth. How have you managed to overcome the weaknesses that others fall victim to?
It most definitely is a possibility, and your type of thinking is exactly what we need more of.
I assure you I have and continue to explore the possibility, which is why I often reach out to people who seem to believe they have witnessed specific, concrete evidence, to share the specific information they have seen. Alas, despite no shortage of such people, I have yet to encounter one who is willing and able to provide anything beyond a link to an x00 page report full of allegations.
Apologies if I have given that impression, it was definitely not my intent. I am simply pointing out that there are plenty of people who make strong and specific assertions, but are unable to provide any strong, specific evidence. I have not formed any final conclusions, but the longer this drags on, and the more specific claims I read in the news that are not backed by supporting evidence, it seems fairly reasonable to suspect that the story is not true, if not actually faked (as we now know the Iraq WMD story was faked). I have no particular theory on what the underlying motive might be if this is the case.
If you know of anything I've overlooked, please post here so we can all become more informed.
Are you just picking on a technicality here or do you genuinely believe that the vast majority of the executive would/should feel it's wrong for the US to meddle in foreign elections?
I think it is a stretch to claim that an article from Time magazine about how four American political consultants helped Boris Yeltson win an election is the same as state-sponsored election hacking and interference. I also don't see how this article is equivalent to the entire US "bragging" about anything.
One involves multiple crimes being committed at state-scale (DNC hack [1], RNC hack [2], identity fraud [3]) the other was a consulting contract.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-t... [2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-russian-hackers-had-rnc... [3] https://www.wired.com/story/russian-trolls-identity-theft-mu...
That's what I was raised to believe as a child in America. Time Magazine is right up there with apple pie.
It’s fundamentally different for a hyperpower to do this versus a failed superpower. There is no comparison and as an American it’s in our best interest to utilize our cultural and military hegemony for the best of our interests.
So yes, you’re right but I don’t see it as a bad thing at all.
Of course not, that's my point. You'll rarely hear those in power complain about the possibility to abuse power to oppress others ;)
It is one thing to (through analysis) arrive at the conclusion that people and states don't live up to the ideals of the Golden Rule [0]. It is quite another thing to openly support the idea that the rich and powerful should use their power to further their own interests at the expense of others. Suffice to say that the latter puts you on a different trajectory than the collective body of religious and political thinking since time immemorial, western and eastern alike. Just sayin'.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
The mentality of bullies. The US really needs history to teach its people some lessons of humanity. Luck may turn away and smile on other countries, and experience more of these times and the people as a whole may start to learn.
Trying to skew media (elections, opinions, policy) of other countries is something many (most? all?) governments did for centuries. And those activities were not particularly well hidden from citizens.
I think earlier (30+ years ago), most of the rank and file citizens were isolated from such influence and few who were exposed to it, e.g. those doing business abroad, were immunized (by privilege, counter-propaganda or a feeling of a gun at their backs).
I think current manipulation efforts makes elites panic only because those efforts can reach most of the country which makes old countermeasures ineffective. My 2c (I grew up in what is seen today as a totalitarian state).
But remember kids, "the russians" interfered with the elction.
Except in the fact that they did as proved by multiple intelligence agencies (including the Dutch) and multiple infosec security companies?
The US intelligence agencies that - like here - fake evidence to further their own agenda as well as their friendly foreign colleagues? Must be true then i guess.
And as for a infosec company: showing that you found some russian IP or some strings originating from a Windows OS with ru_ru locale is not "evidence". It's making a educated guess at best. In fact, if you read thru some leaked NSA manuals on Wikileaks, the US intelligence agencies specifially teach their tech people how to use such techniques to plant false tracks.
You’re effectively projecting your own version of reality right now. The Dutch had security camera footage.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/01/dutch...
All of this was documented in the Mueller report, the GRU indictments and the Stone indictment.
It's all nonsense. The intelligence agencies are lying to you.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@suzi3d/10-reasons-the-dutch-rus...
literally NONE of the arguments brought up in that post contradict the facts. Who gives a fuck about how the US government feels towards Edward Snowden? How does that prove that the Dutch are lying? It makes zero goddamn sense.
I'm not sure what post you're reading - but every single one of the arguments in the post contradict a pivotal 'fact' in the anti-Russian, xenophobic propaganda effort.
Can you be more specific with your criticism?
This article is taking about general hacks targeting
1) the DNC 2) the state department 3) the white house
sometime in the time of mid-late 2014. Just to be clear: i have no doubt that they tried to hack these organizations. Now, wheres the election interference? Apartently they were caught early on, the FBI and other agencies knew about it. So wheres the interference in the election? The DNC leaks on Wikileaks? There is 0 hard evidence that the origin of that leak was russian intelligence. Friendly reminder: John Podesta used "password" as the password for his account. It could have literaly been a 12 year old kid from Armenia, who knows.
Security camera footage of people walking in a hallway.
During Iraq we offered evidence, including from international sources, proving beyond any doubt that Iraq was developing WMD. We even had published video of "mobile biological weapon laboratories" and information from informants who were literally working on these exact things but secretly feeding us intelligence.
As you [hopefully] know now - it was all fake. There was no WMD, there were no mobile biological weapon labs, there was nothing. The evidence was all fake. The footage we claimed was bio weapons labs was of trailers that produced hydrogen for usage in conventional artillery (as Iraq said all along). Even after we invaded and knew the labs were benign we constantly lied. Rather than repeat our neverending stream of lies, Wiki has them nicely cataloged here [1]. Our ultra secret inside source who revealed his remarkable tale after achieving refugee status in Germany, was actually a Taxi driver in Iraq who knew nothing and had no connection to the government whatsoever, but was apparently a great con man - or, more likely, was an idiot we knew was lying but gave us more "evidence" we could use to achieve the goal of starting a war we wanted.
And this was not just American intelligence. This was American, British, German, and more. Intelligence agencies pursue their own goals and will happily lie, fake, and manipulate people and society to achieve them. We're now aiming for war with Iran. At the same time that Japan's prime minister decides to visit Iran, Iran in an unprecedented act decides to attack a Japanese tanker? Look, our five-eyes intelligence agencies are here to give you all the hot evidence for something that makes no logical sense whatsoever, yet conveniently gives the US absolutely every thing it could possibly want. Amazing isn't it?
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_weapons_laboratory#Disc...?
I'm watching this viciously accurate post get silently downvoted into oblivion.
Iraq did once have WMDs, namely poison gas that it used against tens of thousands of Iranian civilians... with the help of the CIA.
Today, many Americans have never even heard of the Iran-Iraq War. Those that have often never heard anything other than unsubstantiated American propaganda, particularly the American accusation that Iran was using poison gas against Iraq. An accusation for which there has never been any evidence.
When it comes to the American government and international affairs, any position less than reserved skepticism is totally irresponsible.
Sure they both fall under the category "trying to influence someone through social media". But so does a press release put out over Facebook, and lot of other completely innocuous actions.
If we found out the FBI was systematically spending lots of money to influence our elections people would be pissed.
This comment seems to be ignoring the long and recurring history of the FBI and other government agencies in subverting, persecuting and destroying the lives of those who were peaceful members of left leaning political parties, basically anyone who identified as a communist or socialist... or who knew anyone who identified that way. Or actually, anyone whose political ideals contradicted American corporate interests. That includes in our country and other countries.
This is not to mention the more controversial reality of the close collaboration between US intelligence agencies and the entertainment and education industries.
Yes. Let's not forget that for a good portion of the 20th century the FBI not only explicitly worked against equality and ecology, but also explicitly funded fascist millitants, and domestic terrorism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
Strzok and Paige sound familiar at all? I think I'm spelling those right.
I've always suspected the chans were full of feds, the toxic speech functions as obfuscation allowing for open discussion of sensitive subjects.
Didn't Qanon explicitly self-identify as a "fed"? So it's not exactly news that feds too like to shitpost on the *chans - arguably, they can shitpost better than anyone!
I'm a sniper with 90 confirmed kills.
I wrote it. Is it true?
...or the agent isn't the person who took the screenshot. Screencaps of deleted threads are common on chans and it's more likely they got one of those than the original.
If you dig into other discussions about this (the chans were all over this last night) then there are other images that show entire discussions being faked by single IDs. It doesn't guarantee the FBI was behind it themselves, but the evidence is manufactured.
...or they got the screenshots from somebody else posting in the thread who tipped them off.
If an FBI agent introduces a bag of coke as evidence, that doesn't mean it's her cocaine.
If the agent didn't retrieve the screenshots himself when he easily could have wouldn't that be easily dismissable evidence since the screen grabs could have been falsified in some way?
That's a great point. Someone else could have even modified the page content before taking the screenshot, which would make the modifications undetectable.
It seems like the agent has to claim he took the screenshots himself; otherwise, they are worthless as "evidence."
Exactly. Evidence requires a chain of custody otherwise it is worthless.
I am not a lawyer, but presumably at least part of the reason they're wanting to execute a search warrant on 8chan is to gather evidence with a clear chain of custody.
These screenshots are part of a court filing to get that search warrant. Imagine if I sent in an anonymous tip that my neighbor was running an illegal dogfighting ring, and I included photos of dogs I'd seen in his yard. My possibly-faked photos probably wouldn't stand up in a trial, but they certainly might help convince a judge to sign a search warrant for further investigation.
Not exactly related but how often do you think some form of radicalization happens due to these forums? I don’t visit so I am not sure but it seems like these places are a breeding ground for violence.
Much unlike the others.
Twitter: https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/huffpost-editor-says-new-y...
facebook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Chicago_torture_incident
I would personally pin the blame on the YouTube recommendation algorithm and the Chans first due to their natural tendency for extremism, even if some of it or even most of it is ironic.
The fact that the Tree of Life shooter posted to Gab before his attack is no accident. He wanted to radicalize others.
I take a view as a paraphrase Sid Meier's Alpha Centuari "Evil lurks onlibe as it has lurked in the streets but it never was the streets which were evil."
Gab is significant because its niche was essentially "Twitter for bigots who are too stupid to dog-whistle." It is the community that is the problem.
What you're speculating is well-documented researchers, and painfully obvious to certain folks of colloquial familiarity with the growth of Internet culture. The best "crash course" I can offer you are two PDFs of research on the subject.
Not only do these forums radicalize participants to violent extremism, their ideology proliferates into, and influences mainstream media, which in turn begins to draw mainstream audiences towards radical violence.[1] This shift in public discourse could have devastating consequences for peace and the stability of our society. There are no more serious threats to civilization, in my estimation.
It's important, also, to remember that these are deliberately amplified propaganda campaigns, not "organic" or popular reactionism.
This radicalization is bought and paid for.[2]
1) https://datasociety.net/pubs/oh/DataAndSociety_MediaManipula...
2) https://datasociety.net/output/alternative-influence/
It's been pretty obvious from day 1 that the whole xenophobic anti-Russian scaremongering was being inauthentic and confected.
It's all just noise. There's no substance to any of it - just vague circumstantial nonsense and wild, unsupported allegations.
Just because the US is doing this doesn't mean that Russia isn't doing the same. There is evidence they have done it before [1], plus, why wouldn't they? It's a cheap way and easy way to spread propaganda.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html
I didn't make any comment at all about whether Russia does the same. I assume that any major power is constantly propagandising its own people, and those of other countries.
The issue is that this propaganda has become a mainstream news story which is:
1) Endlessly repeated on-air by trusted individuals
2) Almost universally accepted as a truth by politicians and pundits despite there being zero concrete evidence of any Russian conspiracy
3) Rarely, if ever, challenged by politicians, pundits or guests on any mainstream news channel.
Okay, I misunderstood, your message seemed to imply Russia doesn't try to spread propaganda online.
You're right, it is blown way out of proportion. Russia is most likely doing it, but yeah, I've never understood the focus on Russia when literally anyone can, and basically everyone tries to influence US politics, many (like Israel, or certain media outlets) do it openly.
I don't really see how anything I said could be construed that way, but ok :P
Sure you're a not a fed yourself? :P /s
What? There's quite a bit of evidence, and an entire special counsel was appointed to investigate and litigate the evidence!
https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Muel...
Sections 2 and 3 are particularly relevant in this case.
There's no evidence. There's a handful of (allegedly) Russian facebook posts / members, and then spurious, inconsequential allegations about specific individuals.
The special counsel is an obvious stitch up which has achieved almost nothing aside from some irrelevant indictments, and which has produced no credible evidence of any conspiracy with Russia.
If your terms of investigation are just 'Russian interference', then you can classify literally anything which comes from a Russian as being 'interference'.
Is my post 'UK interference' in US politics? It's a joke. The entire world is laughing at the US over this.
That's a misrepresentation of the extent of Russia's espionage and propaganda campaigns during the elections. Considering Russia's propensity to kill people on UK soil, you'd think you'd be more willing to accept that their intelligence services can be brazen.
No, no evidence was produced that Trump or his campaign conspired with them. But massive amounts of evidence was produced that Russia tried to influence the election.
The Skripal narrative is nonsense too. The whole story is a farce.
Having preferred outcomes and posting memes on Facebook isn't a crime under any law - national or international.
If it were just posting memes, there wouldn't be this fiasco in the first place. No, Russia didn't commit any crimes when it came to the propaganda, but the US also isn't committing crimes when they spread propaganda in other countries. Espionage, influence, and intelligence operations can be very effective without necessarily being illegal.
Also, propaganda aside, Russia did certainly commit crimes when it comes to the US politics-targeted hacking performed by their GRU and SVR intelligence departments during 2016.
Are you able to excerpt a few sentences from sections 2 and 3 that you believe are the most compelling?
It seems like Russia is USA's boogeyman. Every time, the establishment want people to believe some narrative they use Russia. Conservatives used Russia and communism throughout the cold war. Surprisingly, so called leftists are doing the same from 2016 onwards, blaming russian influence because their choice of candidate did not win.
You don't need to be a leftist to think the Russian government played a role in influencing the U.S. presidential election when it engaged in a hacking campaign against a candidate.
Can you point to some examples of conservatives who think Russia got Trump elected? If anything, it seems like our news media’s obsession with Trump had a larger role in getting him elected. They gave him nearly 24/7 coverage, and continue to give him that same focus even today.
Amash? There are lots, just because the party apparatus is all about the Trump train, doesn't mean conservatism is solely defined by fealty to him.
Blame gravity
But you do need to be a leftist, to think and argue that that type of interference, by same nations, was not done in 2012 or 2008.
You also need to be a leftist, to still continue to claim that Russia helped a Republican to be elected US president in 2016.
We know Russia helped a Republican be elected US president in 2016. There's a whole 400+ page report exhaustive going through the available evidence.
"maybe a us president be so gleeful about a foreign country interfering in our elections" isn't a leftist stance. Branding any opposition to the GOP narrative that Russia is "fake news" as leftism is just pure partisan hackery.
Nope.
I am reading the report
I actually, cannot find anything in that report that establishes unquestionable links and outcomes that left was looking for.
https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
Selective-outrage, cherry picked partisan garbage.
In general, selective-outrage leads to selective justice, selective justice leads to tyranny, please think about it next time you read cherry picked conclusions.
Even with that, the investigation -- were not able to establish that
a) Trump directed Russia to do anything
b) the outcome of election was driven by foreign interference
In the mean time, Obama admin did not stop any interference while they knew of attempts. So it was either not significant or it did not help Trump.
Let's not forget, however what has been established:
The whole investigation was partisan, and premised on fake evidence, illegally planted.
Clinton campaign directing and buying fake evidence from foreign powers, to initiate spying on a political opponent -- is exactly the type of foreign and domestic inference, that should have been investigated by a special council.
So that much for 'equal justice' for all.
Mueller's claim that Russia hacked into DNC emails and release damaging truth to US voters, through Wiki leaks -- has not been proven either beyond a reasonable doubt.
You can choose to believe it -- but there is no evidence that was presented to public that clearly established the link.
--
Finally, nobody is branding oposition to GOP as fake news -- what is branded as fake news is:
a) selective-outrage
b) fake claims
c) active suppression of positive news from Trump
d) active purging of conservative voices on social media platforms
e) presenting the left's abuse of judiciary system with never-ending perjury traps -- as 'Justice'. While the outrage against this hijacking of US's judiciary system is labeled as 'obstructing'.
Real leftists don't mindlessly believe the nonsense spouted by the intelligence agencies.
It’s to sell helicopters. The oil guys like Russia a whole lot
I feel some of the agencies mentioned will comment here as well...
Kinda feel someone already did...
Once again, just leaving this here.
https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
It has been posted before, but a day can't seem to go by without new people being taken by surprise that this type of thing happens.
Information is power, and there are many people in high places that realize it. A modest investment in keeping an eye on your opponent, and ruffling feathers on line is the new border skirmish or airspace invasion.
If you have an odd feeling in the back of your head that someone or something is actively making it more difficult to discuss something without disruption, distraction or usurpation of the public forum; odds are that is exactly what is happening. If it isn't your platform, and it's big enough to attract a large audience, then it becomes increasingly likely somebody else has been bothered to implement some sort of filter.
Is it good, bad, or indifferent? That I leave to the reader's sensibilities. However, in my opinion, there is a growing trend brought about by a tendency for increased centralization where this type of "forum engineering" is increasingly valuable to nation-state actors. Be careful out there folks, and double check your information consumption. The Signal can't be stopped, but it can be made hard to find through all the equivocation.
“CIA Supervisor: Jesus Fucking Christ. What did we learn, Palmer?
Palmer: I don't know sir.
CIA Supervisor: I don't fucking know either. I guess we learned not to do it again. I'm fucked if I know what we did.
Palmer: Yes sir, it's hard to say.”
-Cohen Brothers, Burn After Reading
How can we differentiate between this agent making these postings as an official part of their FBI duties, or making these posts for their own reasons? I know that the screenshots imply that they made these posts while performing their duties, but well I'm at work right now when I'm making this HN comment, and that doesn't mean that my employer instructed me to make this comment.
Is this sanctioned forum sliding, or just a bored government employee shitposting when they're supposed to be working?
Why would screenshots of his personal browsing be used for the court case?
The response of the agent's superiors might leak some information as to what is actually going on behind the scenes, if they do respond. But then, any such response should be taken with a massive grain of salt due to the fact that all of this is part of multi-domain operations conducted by the US government and military.
On the topic of fake news and disinformation, what would one do to determine whether this post is disinformation or fake news? Most of the sources cited are to websites I’m unfamiliar with.
Is there an easy way to verify?
I miss the days of a squeeky-clean FBI (at least the image.)
These days we seem to be getting the X-Files version of the bureau.
Wonder how many are posting in this thread