- 624comments
- 143comments
- 182comments
- 289comments
- 658comments
- 154comments
- 176comments
- 516comments
- 179comments
- 277comments
- 202comments
- 220comments
- 144comments
- 220comments
- 302comments
- 295comments
- 117comments
- 260comments
- 249comments
- 73comments
- 217comments
- 149comments
- 343comments
- 192comments
- 389comments
- 63comments
- 212comments
- 428comments
- 67comments
- 40comments
I'm surprised this page doesn't mention the automotive thermostat which uses the same principle to control the flow of coolant between the engine block and radiator in an ICE vehicle.
Perhaps you would consider adding that information? That's would be an interesting addition!
The "See Also" has "Wax thermostatic element" [0] which seems focused on automotive applications, so perhaps it was there and grew large-enough that it got split off.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_thermostatic_element
Seems as though it's been filed under a different page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_thermostatic_element
They were also used for cold-start idle air control in at least some cars before throttle-by-wire.
Objects like this make me think of grimdark (steam|diesel)punk works like the video games Dishonored or BioShock. It feels like there's a touch of occultism or corruption whenever one creates a device that exploits analog side effects to create machines in a closed, black-box package.
I have bad news to tell you about your "digital" computer.
The second sentence also fits for field effect transistors and solid state electronics in general.
In the spirit of grimdark steampunk, have you ever heard of pneumatic logic? I still see these systems operating normally in some older mechanical rooms, it’s cool to see them still working after 40-50 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_circuit
I see what you mean, but it’s less the exploitation itself than its immediacy and legibility. It doesn’t vanish behind a million abstractions or complicated miniaturization processes but can be readily experienced and understood, like steam.
On the other hand one might as well associate it with “solar punk”, especially when powered by ambient temperature.
Yes, it seems generally *punk. It’s funny that steam, diesel, and solar punk have this association with immediacy.
Does the originator, cyberpunk? Lots of cyberpunk stories present us with a society that is dominated by a digital abstraction. But the protagonist is special, so, they might not be.
I think the “punk” in cyberpunk was about the AI having a gritty, streetwise protagonist to enable it/fight against it. Extremely immediate.
Big Clive took one to bits some years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPuvhnIoz2g
What a treasure Big Clive is. Educational, entertaining, and zero of those YouTube cliches and clickbait that everyone hates. I don't think he's ever said "Like and subscribe" literally ever.
That’s exactly what I needed to see, thank you!
Using this as a greenhouse vent actuator is pretty cool. It just makes so much sense.
I once had an interview at PA consulting where they asked one of those questions where they have "the answer" but their question isn't well specified enough to lead to that unique answer. They kept adding conditions, but I hadn't ever heard of wax actuators before. (I was like 19 or something - didn't get that job!)
If you want to see one in action, I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sApyrDEXGAI
It was so refreshing to see a video with a clear and direct title. In 2026 this would have been "We cracked open a motor. You won't believe what we found inside! <emoji>". Checking the channel, it seems they have succumbed to this for their latest videos.
Here is a timelapse of one opening a greenhouse window as it gets warm: https://youtube.com/watch?v=S-55VBYbbdo
How does this deal with rain?
Plants tend to enjoy rain
That is such a good idea! Do people sell these as an actual product?
Yes. Most (even cheap-ish) greenhouse kits come with them, at least the ones I've seen around here.
The music is hilarious!
Thus moved solar-thruster
skipping 4 minutes of talking first: https://youtu.be/sApyrDEXGAI?t=249
The expansion of paraffin wax is substantial. I have experience wax potting guitar pickups as well as bicycle chains. I use a skinny, tall tin can for this, placed in boiling water. When the liquid wax solidifies, it not only pulls away from the sides of the can so that the resulting ingot slides out freely, but a void forms in the center. The top surface has a depression and a deep hole in the center.
My mini truck uses a couple of these with vacuum lines to control the choke and EGR. They are expensive to replace for obvious reasons.
Why is this obvious? Beeswax is not particularly expensive I think?
Because they're not being manufactured much anymore.
Wikipedia page has a small error. It shows an actuator (i.e. wax motor) described as thermostatic radiator valve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_motor#/media/File:Thermisc...
These are two separate things: thermostat will close and open based on surrounding temp., the actuator on the other hand opens and closes based on energizing a heating element that is driven by a separate thermostat.
Wax motors are pretty cool things. They rarely fail and do their job even in damp environments. I take care of my better half's hotel with approx 100 of these installed and we replace one of these once every couple of years.
As you seem to know how to explain that would you mind fixing it? You don't even need an account.
Traditionally, Wikipedia encouraged you to "be bold", that is, if you think something is wrong, don't complain, don't ask for permission, just fix it. [1]
But now that Wikipedia is becoming more stable, I wonder if this policy is still pushed as much. My understanding is that on all articles there is an army of autistic and obsessive people who will make sure it stays clean (I mean it in a good way), so if you mess things up, it won't last long, as in, seconds.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold
Certainly not all articles; most edits I make stick. The problem is it sticks out as an extremely sore experience when it is the case, so that's what you hear about.
A dear friend of mine had a battle of sorts with a fan of mother theresa in the spanish version of her article.Of course the zealot maintainer won in the end, no place for evidence backed criticism in religious wiki articles.
I was quite amazed to find these when dismantling appliances.
Me too, took me some time to figure out what this thing does :-)
Boy I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder!
Wouldn't the thermostatic radiator valves contain a wax motor? According to the definition in the article, using ambient heat as the energy source counts. Or are you saying it's only a wax motor if there's electric heating?
My understanding is that wax motors are based on actuation - they are intentionally and deliberately either heated to extend or cooled to retract, and if ambient temperature is used as one endpoint, the other will not be ambient (i.e. a heating element or cooling peltier).
Thermostatic valves are ambient at both sides - they expand and contract naturally with the existing temperature, so they are not motors per se, because there's no actuation beyond the temperature.
Why does there need to be a thermal gradient? It seems like the action driving the actuator is the expansion of the wax due to temperature. You don't need a persistent heat flux to get that, the wax just needs enough heat warm up and change phase.
Edit: also, the actuation from the wax motor only happens while it is absorbing (or losing) heat, even if it later ends up in a steady state with no heat flux.
There needs to be a gradient or the wax won't move due to temperature. The motion is the change in state, as you say, but it won't change state if you don't heat or cool it.
That's why it's a motor, like in dishwashers, not a thermostat like in e.g. greenhouse windows or radiators.
It doesn't need to be persistent, but without some way to create a state that is different than ambient, it's not a motor.
The wax expands due to ambient (even uniform) temperature. It's a linear actuator, so warm -> expanded and cool -> retracted.
I think by thermal gradient they mean a change in temperature over time, not space.
Correct. Delta t
I disagree, I think motor in this case only means “creating movement”. The motor is the thing creating movement depending on the ambient temperature.
Also you seem to have a miscommunication with the person replying to you where they are talking about a spacial thermal gradient and you mean it in a temporal sense.
Apples and apple seeds to me. The way I see it, the thermostat contains the motor (EDIT deleted the rest of explanation).
EDIT: the way I see it, talking about gradients here is nonsense. The wax motor works by expansion/contraction due to point temperature. No gradient is involved. Gradients are thermostat-level thinking, and even then, in the greenhouse scenario, there is no gradient to talk about, because the whole point is just to vent the heat from inside to outside when inside crosses certain absolute value of T, and the only "gradient" that matters is the assumption that outside side is less than T at all times.
no the material inflates proportionate to absolute temperature, causing motion, iiuc
things lietrally change its volume maintaining mass when its temperature changes, due to atoms moving more energetically, like something be 4x4x4 inches at 40F, but 4 1/16 x 4 1/16 x 4 1/16" at 200F
this isn't a Stirling engine with a displacer, just a sealed off piston
I'm not sure I get what you mean.
There are commercial thermostats where the wax element itself is both the temperature sensor and the actuator, eg Thera-100 T1002W0.
I had to replace about half of them within the first ten years of usage in our floor heating. It may have been a bad batch, but I would definitely not claim that the rarely fail. My car did not fail once during that time.
But I'm betting you performed maintenance on your car in that period.
There are some lines of front load washers that use them as the door lock. And the ones they use have a habit of shorting out and taking the control board with them.
The idea is that so long as the washer is providing power the motor stays locked. But if you ever loose power within a few minutes you can open the door if you had to.
As the article stated.
I have this in the greenhouse that came with my house. Seeing its roof closed in fall after it had been open all summer made me question my sanity.
now go blow your mind with the first known conversion of electrical to mechanical energy via "Franklin Bells"
TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY FIVE years ago
in 1752, wow
(but they had no idea why it worked)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_bells
Before the storm, the device would ring to remind Franklin, who had been obsessed with the study of lightning, urging him to chase the lightning
ha "chase the lightning" needs to be a catchphrase
We’ll circle back, launch our go to market strategy, and chase the lightning for a win…
Wax elements are also used in thermostatic valves for faucets (to keep faucet temperature constant given variable hot and cold mains): https://rogerdickey.com/the-ideal-faucet/
Hard disagree with that faucet design, but is a neat idea. I like my bathroom faucet as low maintenance as it already is.
The use case for the full unmixed hot tap is hygiene (usually washing face and shaving).
I also don't want any hot water mixed in when I'm washing my hands. The water coming out of the unmixed cold tap indicates the ambient temperature of the pipes. That's a feature, not a bug.
You should use warm water when you're washing your hands.
Why?
I'm already upset enough about what the water heater water is doing to my skin and am about to go tankless under my bathroom sink!
That's by far the more practical option anyway if we truly cared about the problem instead of fawning over engineer porn. The problem is solved. This is pointless engagement about temperature preference masquerading as something more interesting.
Solubility is a function of temperature.
It used to be public health recommendation (bathrooms in commercial buildings will often only have warm water, for example, because code required it).
There's been studies demonstrating that soap is what matters.
The comment after yours, about solubility, casts serious doubt on those studies. Physics isn't changed by a faucet.
I mean, no it doesn't, first principles aren't worth more than actual outcomes.
Soap and friction do the work. But people are generally willing to wash for a longer period of time if the water temperature is comfortable.
at least in my home, both the cold and the hot water are very uncomfortable to wash my hands in, but mixing it right takes ~15s every time so i usually just accept the discomfort
there is this thing named "Single Lever Wash Basin Mixer Tap".
I think it takes time because the hot water line doesn’t immediately return hot water
Moen figured out a good enough solution without wax called moentrol
Push/pull adjusts volume, rotation adjusts hot/cold mix
It doesn't maintain temperature at all; it maintains the hot/cold mix.
The problem is that the hot temp varies widely (and the cold temp varies slightly as you drain the house tubing reservoir and begin drawing ground-temp water).
Thermostatic mixers make sense for continuous flow applications - showers, filling a large bathtub for example. But I don't think they make sense for a kitchen tap - where you might be filling a small basin.
The goal is that the water in the basin is the correct temperature, not the stream filling it - which means you need to compensate every time based on how much cold is already there before the hot water arrives. And that varies seasonally.
The time it takes for hot water to arrive tends to be a big proportion of the total time the tap is running, so you actually don't want controlled 40C water once hot water arrives. Perhaps if you had instant hot water, this would be useful.
...what is the point of starting this post with an egregious slop image?
The greenhouse vents example reminds me a lot of a float valve (or ballcock).
It's a simple mechanism that used buoyancy to either open or close valves as water level changes in a container.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballcock
I got one from a microwave, it opened vents. It is incredibly strong, also, takes soo much power and is so slow - although i suppose near heat it must work great.
Isn't this more like a solenoid than a motor?
A solenoid is a coil of wire that functions as an electromagnet. Solenoid actuators are named after the coil. This device does not contain an electromagnet, so it would be inaccurate to call it a solenoid.
The question was about function, not nomenclature and this is a linear actuator just like a solenoid.
...what is the point of starting this post with an egregious slop image?
The Wikipedia page?
Did you post this on the wrong link? The first image is literally just a photo of a part, you can look up the part number.
Oops! Right discussion page, wrong thread. I meant to post this as a reply to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49747003
I love alternative types of actuators. Electromagnetic motors are great but they're pretty complex to make, require rare earth metals for best efficiency, and require gearing in most applications. I think in the far future most of our devices will be using other types of actuators, probably made mostly of organic materials. There are many concepts for alternative actuators that just need some breakthrough materials to work.
"Just need some breakthrough materials to work" is the kind of "just" that stops things dead in their tracks.
So far, the game in town has been primarily hydraulics or electromagnetics, and the things that replace them are better hydraulics and better electromagnetics. Alternative actuators are either super niche or fail to leave the labs.
My old espresso machine had one of these, always amazed by the simplicity and robustness. Low-tech solutions often hit different.
Huh. Do these work in a vacuum? Presumably if sealed right? I imagine there's a few space applications, particularly with solar panels.
Yeah, they are used in space. I don't work directly in this field, but have discussed wax motors with some newspace/smallsat folks, and get the impression they are popular for the same reason nitinol wire actuators are: few moving parts, no rotary bearings, resettable/multi-use unlike pyrotechnic actuators.
Seems this would make it possible to make a relatively cheap waterproof actuator if you made it out of something corrosion resistant?
I've been looking for actuators to use in damp/wet environments and sealed actuators are rather expensive and supposedly don't last too long
This is why wax motors are used for washing machine door locks.
how does it work for a door lock?it seem it works pretty slowly.
Mayne you know, are the internal components already designed with corrosion in mind?
In washing machine application the locking action is quite fast as the heating element is PTC connected more or less directly to mains, pretty substantial amount of energy gets dumped into the wax over few AC line cycles. In that application (and also in most industrial automation situations) ~100ms is more than fast enough because when most of the effector components are AC powered you end up with ~40ms worst case actuation delay just from the physics of AC electricity. On my washing machine it is quite noticeable that when you press "start" the door gets positively locked well before the capacitive sensing "button" finishes playing its haptic feedback non-sense. (the fact that front panel of cheap-ish toploading washing machine is actually a huge touchpad with haptic feedback that is designed to look and behave like five physical buttons says many things about economics of manufacturing stuff for that somewhat hostile environment at these scales)
From the linked page:
Some hot water radiator systems use wax actuated valves made from brass (Taco brand is common). They are extremely simple and robust.
thank you for the pointer!
I've struggled to protect eletronics. Waterproof enclosures all fail over time. Though I have some ideas for immersion in mineral oil. But finding actuators that could work has been a bit of a struggle. These look cool, though maybe not something one could run off 5V :) Ill keep looking around
Imagine if you will- a 3d sintered (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering) sand structure. Placed in it is heat collecting material- aka salty-brine- which stores heat as a kind of battery. Placed within it are waxmotors as actuators. Placed within it are nodes with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel - the whole thing is literally dumb as a printed rock, but also capable to do work powered by the sun.
It collects moisture from the air, distills the water out of the silica gel and stores it- then releases it in the evening to plants at the root. A terraforming rock, printed in-situ, with materials available in situ (well except silica gel, optical fibers and wax-motors).
I always wondered what the actuator in the exhaust air valve for my apartment ventilation was - now I'm pretty sure it's a wax motor! You can use a switch to increase the airflow, but it takes a few seconds to react and opens/closes very slowly and quietly.
Some of them are a sort of hydraulic one that uses a spring and some fluid to make the spring release slowly. No idea which you would have lol.
The slow closing prevents water hammer, at least in water systems. In air systems it might just prevent a blast of back pressure blowing all the dust out of your vents onto your carpet.
Huh, fun coincidence! I just pulled this article as a WikiGacha card recently.