Wonderful to see an antidote or utopian counter-example to the extremely right wing misogynism of DefCon.

If you live in Germany and would like to experience this on a smaller scale THIS WEEKEND, come to the CCC conference in Dresden, called Datenspuren, run by our local CCC Erfa-Kreis C3D2. It takes place from 18.09 - 20.09 in Zentralwerk Dresden. Entry is completely free of charge, with a donation being appreciated.

It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.

I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.

You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:

https://talks.datenspuren.de/ds26/talk/

https://datenspuren.de/2026/#start

And thee weeks later there is Interfug in Chemnitz. Even smaller, but the intimate atmosphere can be quite cozy.

https://interfug.de/

extremely right wing misogynism of DefCon.

Can you elaborate? I thought a lot of LGBT people attend regularly?

    "27 to 30 December 2026"

I have always wanted to attend CCC in person, but these dates for the main conference only work if you are 20 and single...

Its the perfect date for people who see all of their "real" family once per year, at CCC. Lots of couples attending obv.

Yeah, would be feasible if tickets wouldn't be so hard to get for externals. Ain't no way my partner would hang out for a year every week with me in a hackerspace

Yeah, CCC is only accessible for people who are already part of CCC for decades.

There are some token newcomers, but overall it is a very closed community.

I have absolutely no connection to CCC whatsoever and yet whenever I wanted to go to a CCC event (3 Camps and 2 Congresses so far, the first time in 2015), I could and when I wanted to take my partner with me, I could do that too. You just have to be fast to get the tickets before they're sold out, that's pretty much all there is to it.

Depends on when it was. Congress was less popular in the past so you could get a ticket.

Nowadays, most tickets go to hackerspaces and volunteers but the open sale sells out in seconds.

Camps are much easier to get to.

I did get my tickets volunteering for like a decade but last year I gave up - volunteering the whole event so I get a chance to go to the next event ... where I would volunteer the while event. That's not a good time.

Especially when there's more and more volunteers competing for work so they get a voucher - while the oldschoolers have no need for any of that because they can always get a ticket through backchannels.

Funny how CCC managed to recreate the worst aspects of capitalism as part of their leftist conference.

21th/24th -> celebrating with family the winter solstice 25th -> visiting the extended family 26th -> visiting friends

27-30th -> congress \o/

31th -> celebrating a new year either close to the congress or with family again

Works very well for very long time. Plenty of families with kids on the congress too and you always have holidays at that time.

Im not single and i'm not 20...

A lot of people spend more than 1 or 2 days visiting family during Christmas time, and travel long distances to do so.

Yeah, works if you're 2h away from the venue.

That's already hectic and stressfull without the congress part, especially if any of the preparatinon for those meetups falls to you.

In the past it was "The Usual Suspects", now it is "Model Citizens". Back then smoking indoors at conferences was a topic hackers would discuss. Now I'm sure it will be a very serious conference full of grown-ups.

Will not be able to attend this year :'-) Have to ask friends to get me a "Model Citizen" shirt!

For me the smoking hall going away was a turning point in the culture at CCC for the worse. Sitting there and smoking weed with random people are some of my favorite memories. It feels less like disneyland for hackers each year

I have been to a couple of CCC events in my late teens'ish. Around 26C3.

Over all can recommend, at least as a groups. I used it to meet some online friends for the frist time. Wifi / wardriving nerds that I spend a lot of time with online.

But man, I think I have never been at a place with so many small negative experience with other people. Death by a thousand paper cuts. One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh. When sitting in the cellar in the "hacking area", friends of mine and me where coding on kismet or aircrack-ng, when someone from the neighboring desk asked what we where doing. After I told him he only lifted his nose slightly and with a smug smile said "Oh, that's what you call hacking today?"

At one camp, where there even was an event on photography, someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera. Not pointed at him, just someone with a camera. Off he went to tell the camera owner about how it was last camp and his opinion ..

Everything just minor interaction. But as a whole it's just not people I want to hang around with any more.

That's just Germany for ya. Source: Am German

Are the Dutch meet-ups better? Wanted to get to why2025 but couldn’t.

A shame, as a Spaniard my German boss always said that I was more German than him...never sure as to take it flattering or otherwise.

Of course he said if I was to be a German I would be from Berlin....apparently those folks can make a public budget work.

This was around the financial crisis. Not this one upcoming, the last one.

someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera.

The rage may be too much but the taboo on taking photo that is real and cultural normal that will be enforced or made to feel embarrassed for doing (i.e. 'lets not be the stasi'). That's the cultural norm of there and that scene. You visited from the states, correct? Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")

One thing in German culture I very appreciate (as australian) is the "polite complaining" as in - you know a German cares if they will share with you what is wrong (and then they will have solution) as Australian we just complain about the big things (but never on your mates or people on your level) hehe "the government" etc - German - politely complain (and here's the patch) etc hehe In both cases it's a sort of affection or closeness if they tell you what they really think

it's not seen negative it's seen like 'of course we have feelings good and bad' etc

All generalising of course.

This could I see easily clash with american culture where often it's positivity all the time and it's seen taboo to say something bad - as if it's letting down the 'team' or it must be personal again 'you' or something - where as kinda truthfulness and integrity seen as the thing there - say as it is or as feel etc

Also another thing you might notice (probably less in Hamburg but in Berlin or something) in winter you want to go for a swim - that's the spa. Everyone is naked. This can come a shock to, say, a culture like the US that had the puritans - that people being naked is not sexualised any way. Actually the US because the norm is "naked" = "naked fun" that can lead to perhaps the most confusing cultural mishap. This might be related to photos also. For instance - in Australia it's increasingly less common people sunbath naked. In east europe and nordics - being naked in spa is just common.

Also: new years eve - they try to blow up everything. In a civilised city it blew my mind to see folks firing guns in the air.

Yes! There's some differences.

Saying that: there's assholes everywhere and don't let the 5-20% allocation of asshole influence your opinion of the 80% of the cool calm quiet

Hmmm... this comment is long... I may be the asshole. Ok,

Ciao

taboo on taking photo

Do Germans complain/rage every time they see a security camera?

Wasn't Germany the original country that forced google maps to censor all houses unless they opt-IN? And faces, and driving plates.

I think they are quite privacy conscious, as a country.

And quite averse/backwater (choose your version) on using debit/credit cards. Which is mindblowing from my Easter European perspective. I didn't use cash in a decade.

That has pretty much changed now. I rarely use cash in Berlin. About 2-3 years already...

Berlin is very different from the rest of Germany.

They don't see security cameras because there are very, very few in Germany and the few that exist are in train stations, or private areas like INSIDE a business, or INSIDE a private estate, pointing inwards since they're seldom allowed to film outwards

Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")

you might be giving them another small negative experience. you've certainly given me one.

If people feel obligated to be spazzy around cameras why would they go near an event on photography...

the ccc isn't about photography?

the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political"

That's a very superficial reduction of the meaning of that phrase. It's worth reading the original 1969 essay with that title:

https://www.carolhanisch.org/CHwritings/PIP.html

This quote might help understand the context:

The bad things that are said about us as women are either myths (women are stupid), tactics women use to struggle individually (women are bitches), or are actually things that we want to carry into the new society and want men to share too (women are sensitive, emotional). Women as oppressed people act out of necessity (act dumb in the presence of men), not out of choice. Women have developed great shuffling techniques for their own survival (look pretty and giggle to get or keep a job or man) which should be used when necessary until such time as the power of unity can take its place. Women are smart not to struggle alone (as are blacks and workers). It is no worse to be in the home than in the rat race of the job world. They are both bad. Women, like blacks, workers, must stop blaming ourselves for our “failures.”

The author was dealing with and responding to very real oppression, and pointing out in part that day-to-day interactions were consequences of, and contributors to, that oppression. That's one sense in which "the personal is political."

The introduction also points out where the overall insight came from:

However, many on the SCEF [Southern Conference Educational Fund] staff, both men and women, ended up joining the criticism of women getting together in consciousness-raising groups to discuss their own oppression as “[navel]-gazing” and “personal therapy”—and certainly “not political.”

They could sometimes admit that women were oppressed (but only by “the system”) and said that we should have equal pay for equal work, and some other “rights.” But they belittled us no end for trying to bring our so-called “personal problems” into the public arena—especially “all those body issues” like sex, appearance, and abortion. Our demands that men share the housework and childcare were likewise deemed a personal problem between a woman and her individual man.

In that context, the personal was political in a very concrete, direct sense.

I’ve been a hacker since the Cap’n Crunch days, I’ve been involved with many hackerspaces around the world, used to sit at the pay phones in Union Station waiting for distant calls, some forgotten first Friday of the month .. and all I can say, anecdotally, is that this death by a thousand cuts is par for the course.

Hacker culture has been co-opted by a broad spectrum of folks - and a big part of the value of CCC is navigating that spectrum.

I’ve met plenty of folks that are annoying as fuck in this scene - but I’ve also met plenty of folks who are just great.

As for the camera thing - Germans have an aversion to being held accountable for their actions in public. It is a deep-seated fear of consequences born from a culture that literally thought it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors. They cram themselves into boxes upon boxes and live on top of 2000 other people they want nothing to do with. Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere, and why don’t they just smile and enjoy the fact that they are frozen in time on some strangers device, just like a strangers memory they have no right to erase. This is the needed context.

I think Germany is not the same as the US in regards to expectations of privacy in public when it comes to photography. Also there are plenty of signs and warnings at CCC to respect privacy and not take pics without consent…

Yes, Germany absolutely has a right to privacy in the public sphere

It's a nuanced right that has to be weighted against other rights and societal benefits. On the street it's usually easy: your picture can contain crowds or people who are there incidentally, but if you point the camera at a person you need their consent. But at a gathering like the CCC even being an identifiable member of the crowd might create issues for people, and you have to take that into account as photographer (both ethically and legally)

if you point the camera at a person you need their consent

In public spaces (streets, squares, etc.), you may generally photograph people without consent for purely private/non-commercial purposes, as long as it is not intrusive, secretive in a way that invades privacy, or shows them in a state of helplessness, intimacy, or compromise (the latter can also trigger criminal provisions under § 201a StGB).

Casual or incidental street photography is usually fine; highly targeted or harassing photography of individuals can still violate general personality rights.

However - the key rule (Recht am eigenen Bild under §§ 22–23 Kunsturhebergesetz / KUG) mainly restricts publishing or publicly displaying recognizable images of people, not merely taking them in public.

This is a distinction many Germans do not quite comprehend - but it is also the case that it’s not very well understood in the USA, too.

Disclaimer: I am a recordist, I am responsible for a few well-received (even by the original artists themselves) bootleg recordings of famous gigs, I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever. Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.

I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever.

This is a balancing of legally protected interests [Güterabwägung] between privacy and censhorship. Independently of what the law may say, many Germans are strongly biased towards privacy here. Be also aware that in Germany the strong US-American concept of "free speech" does not exist; the laws that do exist are weaker.

Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.

Why not ask for permission instead of objection? (even if, as you claim, the formal written law may be on your side)?

it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors.

It'still acceptable by the way. I had a guy whom I swear I have seen for the first and last time, allegedly my neighbour, call me by my first name and comment on my garbage-separating habits

Yes indeed, there is an undercurrent of this culture still lurking in the shadows.

I think it’s a consequence of the architecture, personally.

Germans aren’t actually used to having a lot of privacy - I often cringe when I hear my neighbor flush their toilet, and I live in an ‘innenhof’ surrounded by the noisy lives of a vast array of cultures, yelling at each other and having sex and calling their kids back in from the yards for dinner. We all live on top of each other, and for some people this is reason enough to snoop.

garbage-separating habits

This is a make or break issue for a lot of Germans, it’s true. I personally believe its because the maintenance costs of the apartment/communal living waste admin are borne by all tenants, so this gives folks the idea that they have a ‘right’ to police each other over it.

I’ve learned my own quirks over the years, living in DACH states. I recently found myself seriously judging people by the nature and form - and indeed, strategic availability - of the house shoe spoon. If there isn’t one, you’re about to enter the house of a heathen. If there is one, but it’s small, a sadist. If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.

I’m sorry, Oida, I can’t help it. The shoe spoon is a social indicator! (Edit: I’m joking, a metal shoe spoon doesn’t make you a fascist - its more of a mental game I play while taking off my shoes at a new friends’ house, and I do have to say I am correcting myself on this habit of pigeon holing on the basis of the nature of ones shoe spoon, although I find it amusing as a mental game I do recognize its a prejudice I’m forming in my old age…)

Being intrusive is one thing. But this guy apparently waited until I was bringing out my garbage and go back, rushed to the paper bin to see my name and checked the quality, all without me seeing him, repeatedly, and I believe he did that with other neighbours too. That's basically a second job

In a life of comfort, the mind makes its own travails.

It sounds like a quote? If not: beautifully put

German here. I never thought this was about privacy, but there is definitely a tendency to follow the rules because they are The Rules regardless of how much sense they make - and then judge others by it, or go into Cover Your Ass mode because you fear to be judged yourself.

If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.

I got a long one, made of metal, but I never knew it makes you right-wing! I just bought it because it's by far the most sturdy one available and I absolutely can't stand the plastic (or small) ones.

Just remind them, public photography is not a crime

Photographing at CCC events (Congress and Camp) is permitted only if you get permission from all the people depicted on the photo. Yes, this makes wide shots of crowds effectively impossible to take there without breaking the event's rules. Everyone present there has agreed to that rule by coming there, so it's not unreasonable to expect them not to break it even if it's not a crime.

https://events.ccc.de/congress/2025/infos/fundamentals-and-f...

The entitlement of "I can photograph whatever I want"-people is unmatched, which is nicely demonstrated by this thread. Disrespectful, entitled and self-scentered.... individuals.

There is a fine line, I agree - but I prefer to ask for forgiveness than permission when taking photo’s in public.

A society which censors the public sphere, endangers the public.

It’s a double-edged sword, and photography - like many technologies - can be weaponized against the individual; but it can also be used to gain justice against the crimes of the state.

The disrespect, entitlement and self-centered posturing goes both ways though, though.

“No, sorry, I wasn’t taking a picture of you, I was taking a picture of that cute dog - you just happened to be in the background, and I wouldn’t have anything to do with you if you weren’t so paranoid and self-centered…”

Public photography is a right which needs to be protected - by the public.

Just ask Rodney King. Or, you know, the children of Gaza. If you don’t know what either of those have to do with this discussion, you probably haven’t seen the photos…

You have no respect for the culture of the place and people you're interacting with.

"Use public data, protect private data" has been one of the main reasons in the CCC since the 80s, at the same time German Law and culture is different when it comes to taking pictures than what you seem used to. Maybe familiarize yourself with it before you break the law and claim everybody else is wrong.

FWIW, it isn't just CCC. Most previously relatively private events/groups have now acquired professional influencers ( including more recent dashcam shaming trend ), snake oil peddlers or clout chasers. We just had midwest vintage computer expo here and while some things did get better, some things parent said immediately triggered the comparison.

I don’t really understand what you’re saying, could you expand on it? MWVCE is a private event, the organizers can set the policy at the door - are you saying that folks were not willing to comply with the policies?

What triggered the comparison, specifically?

What I am saying that the cultural zeitgeist has changed sufficiently that it is very, very different from the one of only 20-30 back. Way back when I was but a wee lad, we didn't go around taking pictures of strangers for public entertainment almost regardless of public facing policies regarding said strangers. It is a very different frame of mind. I think I can officially say farewell to that world.

Do you believe in the preservation of history and culture for the benefit of the future?

I don’t take pictures of random strangers for entertainment - I take pictures of the beautiful, open, public spaces I visit, which happen to have people in them.

The notion that a society should not be free and open in this regard is, frankly, repressive.

Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere,

That maybe true in some places. But it's a lot more nuanced in Germany. The "easy" one is publishing a picture where individuals are key to the picture (not background noise) that is clearly protected and requires permission.

It becomes a lot more complex when just taking a picture and not publishing it. There are arguments about this already being problematic due to processing of personal data etc.

However at CCC it becomes easy again: It's private ground, not public. And then they can forbid and be done. Then you need a legal argument about you taking a picture being more important than their rights. And no, American freedom of speech or so doesn't work.

Former freelance camera operator who worked in Germany here: you are misrepresenting the legal situation. It is not automatically forbidden to take or even publish pictures of strangers, but the circumstances matter. Merely taking an identifiable person's picture can already infringe their personality rights, even without any intention to publish it. A request to delete it does not automatically settle the matter, but "we are in public" does not settle it either. See BGH, VI ZR 272/94 .

Publishing such a picture generally requires consent under § 22 KunstUrhG , with exceptions under § 23 . "There is no right to privacy in the public sphere" is simply not an accurate description of German law. And "not a crime" does not mean something cannot violate someone's rights.

The comparison with memory ignores what makes a recording different: it can be copied, distributed and matched against other records. Someone remembering my face does not give them the same capabilities as having a photograph of it.

And protecting personal information is hardly some recent corruption of hacker culture. The CCC's own ethics say "Make public data available, protect private data", an addition they date to the 1980s: CCC hacker ethics .

One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh.

Yep, and tell that to anybody who got either kicked out of the country or lost their livelihood by commenting against the Palestinian genocide in the social media.

This is very much true. I have met some if the coolest people in CCCs but also some of the worst people. I miss the atmosphere but I don't miss the selfimportant assholes everywhere.

I just wish I could get Floral Mate here, the Tschunk is not the same without it.

ETA: it was actually the Russian invasion of Ukraine that broke my perception of German people and thus CCC for me. But that's a different story.

it was actually the Russian invasion of Ukraine that broke my perception of German people and thus CCC for me.

Wdym?

I'm German and kinda wanna know.

My personal view on the matter is that Germany should not have - in any way - participated. There was no treatment with Ukraine. The Russian invasion was unconscionable, but ultimately doesn't matter if you hadn't entered into a defense contract before the event.

From my perspective this whole thing is like someone not paying their insurance premium and then having a random assortment of insurers offer options to them. Simply because theyre geographically close.

And it's not like the massive amount of money being thrown at them is actually being appreciated either. Yes I know they're supposedly only borrowing the money, but anyone with half a brain knows that Ukraine will default as soon as the war ends, effectively wiping the slate.

I hold the same position for any other initiatives that the German politicians throw money around for outside of its own borders

Yes. Thank you for perfect example.

I thought the Germans are people like us, but your values are entirely alien to me.

Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.

Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like the talks, they are very good. It is just a bit funny for me. They can't try harder to be hackers? Or is it like this in germany always?

The organisation has to still pay their suppliers, and have to comply with anti money laundering laws

Go to the local smaller CCC conferences, where you can pay with things like GNU Taler or cryptocurrency, and the entry is often free anyway, with a donation being appreciated or buying event merch being a nice alternative to simply donating.

I think the hacker spirit is definitely alive & kicking in those smaller CCC events.

I'd never heard of GNU Taler but the FAQ left me even more confused.

Can I send money to my friends with Taler? Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.

Also the funds have an expiration date (forced spending). Who is this for? My naive read seems like it has all the downsides of bitcoin and more with none of its upsides

The doc won't point it out explicitly and I apologize if my explanation offends anybody, but the intention is basically leftist, state-friendly bitcoin. The authors took a look at the anarchy of real cryptocurrencies and realized they don't actually like anarchy, so instead they want to make something "wholesome" that governments would be willing to go along with (since they can tax it).

They are funded by EU and banks in an attempt to claw back some market share from cryptocurrencies which are slowly getting banned.

That's the official position. I'm pretty sure, but of course I'm not suggesting you do so, that if you pay with a prepaid credit card and call yourself Random Person you will have no problem. As I said in another thread you can also just show up and buy ticket cash at the entrance from whomever sells them, but of course you risk not getting a ticket. Depends on your concerns. I'm pretty sure if you have a better solution but such large scale event you can contribute directly.

I heard security failed to treat someone correctly after an attempted robbery, tbh put me off CCC. Not trying to be negative just hope they address this I was kinda taken aback.

EDIT > Instead of downvoting me you could defend yourself, say something chill like "security is better this year" or ask for clarification I have no agenda

I’ll be there and bring my average model citizen CYBER collection in display cases.

I’ve ordered hundreds of thousands of stickers with this meme already. [1]

Really looking forward to the event again.

1: https://hack42.nl/wiki/Groupbuy_cyberstickers_2024

Cliff Stoll was at DEFCON this year, would be great for Markus Hess to be at CCC to tell his side of the story.

Link to Cliff's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=656058JxTM0

Actually, Markus Hess already gave such a talk this year (in German, no closed captions but lots of AI-generated illustrations):

https://media.ccc.de/v/ho26-124-vom-hacker-zum-spion-die-ges...

How difficult is it to get a ticket as an outsider nowadays? I remember publicly available tickets selling out in like 3.5 seconds a few years ago.

I don't think there is outsiders vs the rest. Either you propose content, accepted talks or workshops, and you can come or you buy a ticket. Everybody has the same "chance". If you miss the ticket but really want to come you can try your luck at the entrance, there are usually always some people who can't make it but it's of course a bet.