Passkeys have a marketing problem where no one is able to describe simply what it is without having to use technical jargon. There's also the problem where each OS tries too hard in pushing this to the face of end-user
Unlike physical objects they may reside in a TPM, a software vault, an export/backup, or any combination thereof. You may or may not be able to recover or migrate them, depending on where/how they were made.
Therefore you may need multiple per service, or maybe not. Services which only allow one may end up locking you out with no recourse. You get to find out.
None of this is obvious or self explanatory to normies.
Probably because these caveats and weird behaviours are platform-dependent, not really the passkey’s fault.
Passkeys really are not any more difficult to explain than 2-factor authentication. Anyone who’s currently been able to actually create an Apple or Google account and successfully navigate their devices up to a passkey screen will be able to grok how it works.
People around here really ought to stop thinking users are complete idiots. Hell, you don’t even to scroll that far to read people calling users “normies” for crying out loud. What is this? High school?
They're separate stores. I was under the same assumption until I tried to use `security` to get a saved password. It doesn't work, and as far as I know there is no CLI for the Passwords app's store.
This burden is on the site using passkeys. There should be some equivalent of “My Account > Security > Passkeys > Add Passkey.” There often isn’t, which is an incomplete implementation. And yes it’s frustrating.
Imagine a password, but it a) types itself for you and b) detects when it's being sent to an impostor site and blocks them from seeing itself, so it can't be phished.
Cool, where are they stored? (I know the answer: 'it depends', and that's the big problem with their usability: most users haven't a clue what the answer is and most tech support can't answer that question straightforwardly because it depends on some decisions the user probably didn't even realise they made).
Not always. And which vault? There can be multiple on a given device. This isn't some hypothetical 'mollify the user's worries' question, this is an important practical question of what do they need to worry about losing access to. Trust me when I say that most users I have talked to have absolutely no idea about this, and usually only find out when they've already lost them.
How do I use it on my desktop or laptop then? What if I switch browsers on my phone? What if I get a new phone? What if I change from android to iOS or visa versa? What if I need to log into the site on my Wii U's browser?
If you're using a USB hardware token your knowledge of it is at least an order of magnitude better than the median user's. I know where my passkeys are stored, I don't know where my family member's passkeys are stored and neither do they. The same is true for most of my otherwise fairly technical co-workers.
There needs to be industry and government leadership on this to gradually require hardware token usage, for at least critical financial and government applications. Right now everyone is putting their energy behind passkeys, but those are much harder to understand than a physical token. I don’t know any non-technical people who understand how passkeys are normally tied to the device (or the manufacturer-provided cloud account in some cases), how to set them up on a second device, why you might want to do that, etc. And many technical people still don’t get it either!
Are you part of the 99.99999% users of one of iOS+Apple or Androidlike+Google/Tencent or HarmonyOS+Huawei? If that's the case, you don't need to as the key is automagically saved by your OS' platform and synced with your new device.
Otherwise, you're such an extreme outlier that you probably either know what you're doing or can find out by yourself, right?
As others have pointed out, this is a terrible oversimplification which misses all the nuances which cause people headaches when using passkeys.
To your point, I for example would add point c) - Is linked to the device you are using currently. If you want to use another device to log in you are in a world of complexity and pain.
That's the main thing I wish was done better. There was barely any actual lead up from the perspective of an average person. Just a new unfamiliar flow on half of the login screens that they use.
Sure, its explained. But not in a satisfactory way that would reach all users at their level.
This is a bit of an exaggeration and out of proportion, but I think my ideal would be one of the big tech companies should have bought out something like a super bowl ad. Something that actually conveys the idea "hey, we know you've used passwords since you were able to type on a keyboard, but here's new technology that's better and here's why" in plain language that the average person can understand.
Unfortunately, XKCD 2501 continues to be relevant. [1]
The average person? I have a Master's and PhD in CS, code regularly, and have followed and used all the cool technologies from the days of gopher, telnet and Mosaic to crypto, and lately LLMs. And I still don't have a clear enough picture of passkeys to know really basic things like "what if we have a family computer but each wants to access their private accounts and keep the others from accessing?", "what do I need do to login from an airport computer?" or "what should I do if my phone is stolen?"
If it's that unclear to me, I can't imagine how it can be to the average user.
The way they explain them is atrociously unclear, borderline negligent for services that nag people to activate it for accounts where they may hold valuable data for their personal lives. And while I don't want to spend much time finding out the details as long as I have the option to decline them, I suppose if they can't explain it and convince people of its advantages, it's because it's just bad tech.
ok cool so when somebody logs into a site on their phone and sets up a passkey, then goes to their laptop and tried to log into the same account, how do you easily explain how to deal with this situation?
I tell people a website is like a payment terminal. Your device is like your debit card. A password is like a PIN on the card. A Passkey is like a chip on the card.
Logging into a site with your device is like putting your card into the terminal. The site can ask for a password the way the terminal asks for a PIN, but if your device supports Passkeys, that’s like your card having a chip, and it’ll use that instead.
So think of Passkeys like using a chip card.
I dunno how well this analogy works down to the last detail but it has gotten it across to all the parents I’ve used it with
What benefit does that give you? Passkeys cannot be moved, by design. So for the website, recieving the same one means you're talking to the same device, always.
The purpose of rotating passwords is to cycle out potentially compromised ones, due to phishing attacks, keyloggers, shoulder snoops, etc. But those cannot exist with a passkey.
Doesn’t this mean that a compromised device with passkeys on it is worse than a compromised password since the passkeys can’t be rotated? I feel like the answer is obvious so there must be another angle I’m missing
So where do I keep my pass keys is the problem. They are in my password manager just like another password. So what's the point of having them because effectively, the passwords in the password manager and the passkey in the password manager offer the same UX to me? Except that at least I can memorize a password by heart just in case.
They are in my password manager just like another password. So what's the point of having them because effectively, the passwords in the password manager and the passkey in the password manager offer the same UX to me?
same ux, different security properties.
Except that at least I can memorize a password by heart just in case.
"just in case" should be a thought out recovery flow, rather than hoping that you remember the password of the account you need to access.
That is the point. They stop you from memorizing it “just in case” and reusing it, and they force you to use a password manager.
For the average user, which doesn’t use a password manager, this is great. It means they can’t get phished. And it’s also great for the average password manager user, who keeps dozens of insecure and reused passwords in their vault because they manually thought of a password when signing up instead of randomly generating one.
If you’re already using a password manager and random passwords, the UX is designed to be the same. It’s just a way to get regular people to do this.
While the technology itself may be great (I don't really know since I don't use them) it has been co-opted by the tech conglomerates as another form of isolating and walling off users into their ecosystems.
And honestly, nowadays, if tech companies are pushing really hard for something then that is an immediate red flag for me and it bears more scrutiny. One of those "if you see them running that way you run the opposite way".
And honestly, nowadays, if tech companies are pushing really hard for something then that is an immediate red flag for me and it bears more scrutiny.
The reason is the ever increasing number of hijacks of social media presences and code hosting portals, with the latter being a serious financial threat. Done right, passkeys stay in the Secure Enclave, at least for anything Apple and most of the Android sphere. There is no reasonable way to obtain login credentials for accounts protected by passkeys without physical access to the user's device(s).
Fun fact: Google can decide to reject these. Lose access to the original device, try to rely on recovery codes to login with known current password on family member’s device… nope!
The doubt is more "how will tech companies use passkeys as an excuse to do something stupid" than "passkeys themselves must have inherent problems because tech companies are pushing them".
Passkeys could be the savior of all security problems worldwide from a capability point of view and tech companies would still ruin it by trying to force ways it pushes you into their ecosystem instead of just being whats both secure and convenient.
As an example, I have 3 different passkey _APPS_ on my phone and cannot go down to one because of various reasons with each (such as MS authenticator, forced for integrating to Microsoft at work).
Maybe I am getting old but password+yubikey/webauthn was really top UX.
It most definitely isn't. Any 2nd factor that is not the device I am currently using (either a yubikey or my phone) has a non-zero chance of not being near me when I need it, leading to the constant question of "where the fuck did I put that darn thing", only to find out that the cat has decided to believe the yubikey is a mouse and tried to devour it, the phone's battery went dead...
The creds they store hold no value. These creds only give access to their system anyway. They store the email address either way so the situation is no better but less convenient.
Do passkeys improve security posture for the average person, reducing the likelihood of them losing their accounts to fraudulent actors? Absolutely.
But they also introduce single points of failure, as the article points out. I can't even remember how many times I've had to help a family member recover their account or get confused when they can't sign in on a new device. It's incredibly frustrating that this flow is promoted as the default for so many services.
1password is the best solution I've found for the average person. It's not perfect (it's definitely more complex than writing down your passwords on a piece of paper or using the same password everywhere) but it's much easier than juggling yubikeys. I know so many non-technical staff members who prefer the OS or browser keys even if it means another account recovery is lurking around the corner.
Passkeys remind me of ipv6 in that they are a "solution" coming from the supply-side, without (apparently) having done any research in what motivates actual users (and what would motivate them to switch).
They make sense as a technology for businesses & their users. In that scenario, the owner of the account is not the user, but the business. It makes sense for the business to be able to place strong restrictions on how & where the user may log in, it fixes a lot of real problems businesses may have thanks to sloppy user behavior, and the business is also motivated to provide a way to fix broken logins. It's a good solution for that scenario.
But for regular end users where services are primarily motivated to take money from those users and lock them into their ecosystems, they are a usability disaster and yet another exploitation vector.
It's one solution for two very different usecases, and it just does not work. There is an approach that could work for end users who own their own accounts, but they need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite the protocol with the assumption that the keystore is hostile to the user's interests. That means strong guarantees on key portability so users can migrate away from hostile keystores, and absolutely no ability for services to restrict the user's choice in passkey provider software.
I think passkeys were made to work in mind with complete idiots (here's a pop-up, tap it, now you have access to website without password, don't think about where it was saved or that it exists at all). I can understand parts of IPv6 like Router Advertisement being like that but there is so much customizability for the user that I can't really see them being similar that way.
I agree with all the points this articulates. I understand why for many users they are great. But I would prefer better acceptance and continuance of the simpler, unfishable, u2f simple hardware keys.
The experience is also junk if you're using a password manager, I have passkeys that I'm not sure if I saved to the OS manager or my password manager... mostly my fault but I enter passwords so many times a day it can be hard to stay on top of which UI I'm clicking yes in to store them.
Password managers are great IMO, I can use some absurdly long password, backup is reliable, I can use them across devices. For extra secure stuff 2FA works the same, I've got an app with codes I can easily back up and use from multiple devices.
Passkeys tend to obscure everything and take away a lot of control.
Completely agree. I think the root of many of its issues is the inability to add a key that you don't currently hold. This prevents me from storing a backup key in a safe, for example.
I proposed an alternative scheme many years ago: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343318317_Privacy-a... . By allowing "offline" keys you can also treat them as higher priority, and use them to revoke any lesser keys from attackers if your account is compromised.
It would also be nicer to get rid of usernames, but that's a fight against the data-gathering powers that we're unlikely to win.
YES. This exactly. I work across multiple devices, some of which are nonstandard/uncommon (Linux, Xiaomi China ROM, ...) and I've NEVER had passkeys work properly - yet everything constantly prompts me to add one. Even if they did work, I'd have to carry around hardware keys or register each computer separately. And the lack of backups if a device is lost/broken is definitely a larger concern for me than being phished of my TOTP keys.
My wife clicked through a Google dialog and suddenly was using a passkey. It absolutely happens, though IMO more to the non technical users. I know what those login dialogs and pop ups mean, and decline them.
(At least til I get around to setting up my new usb c yubikeys!)
Same as traditional physical keys, you don't have a single key, you have multiple ones precisely so that if you lose/break one, you are not stuck and can go to the local locksmith and get another one in minutes.
In fact it's even nicer since you can just re-use the backup key with no security loss by revoking the other one, and buying another key.
As someone who uses a single password manager on my computer and phone, I don't see the problem with passkeys. I use Safari on both and I never even had to "set up" anything.
I can see why they would be problematic for people who otherwise live life with a single love2025 password though.
Imagine you lose your computer and phone. How do you recover your digital accounts? This happens every day to someone. The most common scenario being a house fire or robbery.
Passkeys do marginally improve security against MITM and phishing attacks, but they are primarily for protecting the lowest common denominator from themselves: people who re-use passwords and/or don't use a password manager.
If you use multiple devices throughout the day, registering passkeys in all of these systems becomes a big headache with O(m*n) complexity, so putting the passkeys in a password manager is the only realistic solution. But this still breaks the login flow for a very common use case: how do I log in on a device that I don't own? With a password in a password manager I at least have the option of manually typing the password.
The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for. I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).
Sad reality is that such usecase is less and less common, thus, no one cares about it. I think majority of my friends would not be able to access their email, or facebook or alike, if they were forced to use my computer in emergency.
Which is a trade-off that makes sense for a lot of people. If you have multiple devices, many of which are portable and one you have on you all the time, the need for that is just way lower, so being more secure against commonplace automated widespread attacks is worth it to them.
Isn't there a workflow where you scan a QR code to confirm the pass key on your phone?
I've definitely done this, but not sure if the workflow was at the OS or browser level.
I'm honestly confused by all the negativity in the comments. Passkeys are great for convenience. Just leave your password login enabled as a backup. That defeats any security benefit, but oh well.
The offer a strong protection against phishing attacks that would still get plenty of password manager users: fake websites. A passkey is strongly linked to a domain, so a fake site can't get that credential.
Some password managers will only fill if a domain matches, but IRL the response I've seen from most users when it doesn't match is to assume the integration broke and manually copy/paste it in. I've also seen lots of them do stuff like happily autofill on any prefix of the domain, so your credential for `something.example.com` will autofill into `fake-something.example.com`.
Some password managers will only fill if a domain matches, but IRL the response I've seen from most users when it doesn't match is to assume the integration broke and manually copy/paste it in. I've also seen lots of them do stuff like happily autofill on any prefix of the domain, so your credential for `something.example.com` will autofill into `fake-something.example.com`.
Why would you trust the very same password managers that don't handle passwords properly to handle passkeys properly?
You don't. The browser handles the passkey matching to the domain which is obviously a better place to do it. There could obviously still be bugs as with all things, but it's much more intentionally integrated into the flow which makes it much harder to bypass.
Right, I haven't seen that particular flaw in baked-into-the-browser ones (probably because they already having secure domain matching code ready to use), but the distinction is that doing the domain check is a part of the spec and standard, so e.g: sites aren't going to break it by changing the log-in subdomain routinely, as has been common historically.
Password managers have had to be permissive enough to work with most websites, and there is no standard for it. There have been sites that blocked the autofilling of passwords and so on as well.
My point wasn't this one particular flaw in some password managers is the reason to use passkeys (the copy/paste point is the much bigger issue anyway), just that it's an example of how relatively brittle the password manager process is. Having it a core part of the spec gives stronger guarantees.
The users are the ones manually copy/pasting the password. There's no way the password manager could prevent this short of disallowing copying/viewing passwords.
but IRL the response I've seen from most users when it doesn't match is to assume the integration broke and manually copy/paste it in.
I've seen people do this AFK as well, and I'm always helpfully suggesting them the correct way of solving this: verifying the URL again, and if correct, add it to the password manager so it remembers in the future, and never copy-paste passwords on the web. Basically 50/50 if they take the advice or come back after a week asking if it's safe to copy-paste the password into the website, and I try to inform again.
Shockingly, I saw one developer peer copy-pasting a password into a website, but I guess for these people there is no hope.
It should be a big red flag for sure, but the reality is most users aren't going to understand that. They got told to use a password manager by someone or find it convenient, but they don't understand the security flow enough to catch that it's a potential attack, or how to resolve it safely.
Historically I've seen lots of sites do a subdomain shuffle for login pages every now and then which routinely breaks domain matching, introducing false positives that users have to deal with, making them numb to the threat too. Passkeys baking in the domain check with no workaround means that sites can't do that, which is a benefit.
"Oh, usually my bank just logs me in, that's strange. Let me just go grab my username and password and type it into this site that looks like my bank."
Same thing is going to happen with passkeys for non-technical users for exactly the same reason you stated. People will think the integration is busted and manually copy/paste the non-passkey credentials in. In that way, I would argue that passkey is not stronger protection against phishing attacks unless its the only way to login. It is, at best, a convenience for users.
If the user just has a username/password fallback and that's it, then yes, but the aim of passkeys is that won't be the norm, rather users will only have passkeys and the fallback would be to, e.g: magic link email log in where the phishing attack is still broken. I've seen some sites explicitly disallow plain username/password login after you enable passkeys for this reason (you can still put them in, but then it just does a magic link flow afterwards as a second factor).
Which is a laudible goal, but something that makes "oh just fall back to the standard insecure recovery process" not a very good response to the concerns about users being able to actually hold on to their passkeys easily and reliably.
This is solved by passkey-implementing software and devices (with Bluetooth) allowing you to log in with a QR code (Webauthn via CTAP hybrid transport). iOS and Android support this, and it’s generally not a locked-down thing if other devices wanted to do it too.
The only use case left is in “how do I login if all my devices are stolen/fall into a body of water” in which there really isn’t an answer beyond “get (a|your) device back, sign back into your password manager, use that to get back into critical accounts”.
The website should display a qr code you can scan with your phone that allows you to then login, unfortunately a lot of sites don't implement this, and some don't implement backup codes. This isn't the fault of passkeys per se, but of poor implementations.
If you're not happy connecting your phone to the network, then how likely is it that you would you be willing to enter your login details on a machine you don't control?
What if you just can't have internet on your phone? Like if the computer is connected via Ethernet and there's no wifi network you can connect to? What if you're abroad and have no roaming? And the ultimate question about a person that the modern world can barely conceptualize - what if you have a dumbphone? Or what if your smartphone is lost or stolen or dead and you need to access some account? That last one has happened to me, and I sure am glad I know the key passwords that I need for survival.
These may seem like nitpicks, but there's probably a thousand rare scenarios like these that exist. You inevitably have to consider them when you're moving from punching in letters and numbers that you remember in the normal, low-tech way to a complex networked two-device workflow.
If my phone is lost or damaged, I would buy a new, cheap Android phone and sync my passkeys to it. But I am curious why one would need to login to a website in order to survive? If one did have say a severe medical condition that somehow required a website in order to manage, I guess I would concede that maybe passkeys aren't the best way to secure such a life-sustaining website.
Steam does this. If I want to login, it shows a barcode I can scan with the app and it logs me in without needing to enter my login information. Phone needs internet access, doesn't need to be on the same network as the device I'm logging in on.
I assume the QR code contains a token for the device, which is used by the app to authorize the login and the server automatically logs in the client on the device with the matching token.
Seems a lot safer to me than using my login credentials on a potentially unsafe device.
They're cheap enough if you lose one it's not the end of the world. Goes on your keyring. Doesn't require esim management. Use NFC swipe/usb-plug-in + pin to use.
My MIL setup a passkey accidentally on her Google account and now has no idea where it is. Removing it now requires her password which she’s also forgotten. But now for some reason on Google I can’t initiate any type of forgot your password flow because of how Google sets up things and I have zero clue where she stored the passkey.
I'm just storing my passkeys in 1password, which means they're synced across my two computers and phone and also means I gave up any kind of hardware security.
I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).
No doubt there exist services that do not offer recovery method for passkey or mfa enabled account. But this is entirely on them (the service), to blame for, not the passkeys or the users. It’s bad implementation.
I agree 100% i learned that my old school with whom I had linked to my windows computer and finished my degree with one day required passkeys rather than passwords on all devices. This force locked my windows PC back to passkey mode luckily I remember recovery account and got a passkey to work. But it took months to figure out why I had to use it. All the help board were said just click this button which was grayed out. Or set this register key which auto repopulated. It was an awful experience. I like my password as default
Ah yeah, Microsoft has this awful habit of just hiding the buttons for actions you don't have permission to do, which makes me feel like I'm being gaslit sometimes when a guide says 'there's a button right here' and there's not, and I've no idea if the button was just moved or if not, why it's not available (sometimes it's because I don't have permission, but sometimes it's because it's a different product with the same name and branding as a completely different product).
I'm was tempted to come in here and say "you're holding it wrong." But then I quickly realized that I had to spend weeks changing my behaviors and messing around with devices in order to get it to work correctly.
As someone who's OpSec puts swiss cheese to shame Passkey has been a godsend. My passwords are actually much better because of it.
If you have to use passkeys, try KeePassXC and KeePassXC-Browser. I used them to set one up for Amazon a few days ago, as Amazon now forces passkeys as of this month, at least for my account. It was relatively painless.
Devices that break or get lost, and then either the user had password authentication activated all the time anyway in addition to the passkey, or they have the classic "mother's maiden name" recovery path, or they get locked out of their account.
Brilliant security: a highly secure high-tech shiny front door that can randomly fail to open, so you still need the low-tech back door, which is the one potential thieves will use.
Mind you, it can work if the back door is old but sturdy (basically, for a bank that will ask for KYC authentication, or in the worst case you can set foot in the brick-and-mortar branch showing your face and ID and ask for access) but for pretty much every other service it introduces risks for very little or no gain.
The point about poor support for 3rd party managers is so frustrating. Because this is correct, that is the obvious solution for the normal user, but passkey implementations somehow do not know how to deal with it.
Amazon prompts me to create a passkey everytime I log in, even when I logged in with a passkey, because my passkeys live in Bitwarden rather than my OS or browser.
And the confusing mechanism hurts there too: I'm always a little bit afraid that i'm somehow more in danger because I keep them in a vault that's shared on all my devices rather than a TPM, because whenever the protocol is explained the "it can't leave your device" part is highlighted as the main source of the security, except.... mine obviously do leave my device, with the vault, so.....
Yet, the Apple + Google implementations will sync passkeys between your devices. "Securely", of course. (I've seen first hand how Apple implements this, and it seems.... sound)
Sites can request hardware-bound tokens, which would block any software based password managers. It's an option in the protocol but one not yet widely utilized.
Amazon prompts me to create a passkey everytime I log in, even when I logged in with a passkey, because my passkeys live in Bitwarden rather than my OS or browser.
What setup are you using? Because I don't have that problem on Linux + Firefox at all
I've resisted passkeys for some of the reasons listed. I use third-party password managers, they're device/system independent, and I can export the data when I want to. I don't see passkeys as a big advantage, or perhaps I should say the bigger advantage isn't really for the _user_.
Of course, at the rate we see security failures everywhere, I'm not entirely convinced writing your passwords on post-it notes wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Keepass2Android without network permissions saving the file to a folder monitored by Syncthing is pretty good though - it keeps responsibilities nicely separated.
I actually prefer non-resident U2F in some ways. You don't have to store anything on your key, you are just signing requests. This is relevant where U2F/FIDO keys have limited slots for 'resident' keys.
In principle, it's great. You have one good password to remember for the average user, and that's enforced by their device's probably good enough security posture.
They are resistant to being phished and they won't reuse the same one everywhere. They then don't end up going from hunter2 to hunter2! everywhere.
But my experience for users is that they worry they are giving their biometrics to Amazon or whoever and so the UX just confuses them.
The certification aspect was new to me too last time passkeys came up. Sites can require that a given passkey has been certified.
The patchy support for them is also frustrating. MacOS does not support NFC FIDO/U2F. iOS does.
using them with 1password has been pretty effortless. 'want to add the passkey' sure why not. 'want to use the passkey?' sure why not. for me it works across devices/os/platform so not sure what the big gripe is tbh.
Two crucial things you can do with a password that you can't do with a passkey:
1. Write it down on a piece of paper and put it in a safe deposit box.
2. Read it on one device (or from a piece of paper!) and enter it manually on another device.
Plain text is the ultimate form of cross-platform portability. Passkeys are the ultimate form of vendor lockdown. The passkey vendors won't even allow you to view the private key, unlike with ssh keys, which you can also write down on a piece of paper. It's vendor cabal to destroy computing freedom in the name of "security", always the excuse. Tech company paternalism at its worst.
If passkeys were meant to be user friendly then there'd be a secure optical transfer mode to QR code them from device to device with the screen and camera.
Easy to implement (receiver flashes a public key, sender encrypts to that key and flashes the QR code back).
That it doesn't exist for a protocol meant to work with phones tells you exactly where the thinking was headed.
Microsoft is especially poorly prepared for this - Often if you have a passkey, it will CONTINUE To ask you to create a passkey (a new and different one), and it may save it in a different place, which is infuriating.
Strong password + MFA is the way, and I don't see that changing.
I absolutely hate them and avoid them everywhere I can. I'm not bound to a single device or I don't want to get bound to some, and some pages quit your option with a normal password login after setting up a passkey. Absolutely frustrating.
I have said before, I'm personally not interested using "Something I have"/"device bound" as an authentication factor. I'm also not interested in the sync "workarounds" that store keys in the cloud.
People have replied it's possible to extract the private key, but it's not clear to me that that's usable (maybe it is I don't know). It's certainly not in line with what passkey devs want people to do and not do, so I'm not interested in "fighting" against the "flow" so to speak.
I'm happy with TOTP, as I can manage and use the codes where I want, under my control.
I don’t like how tokens have gradually evolved from a secure 2F device that you carry with you (Yubikey etc) to a single factor “passkey” that’s built in to your computer/phone, or worse, a password manager with export capability.
It should always have remained a second factor device. It’s not impossible to teach people to use these, European banking did it for years. There’s just no will to do it.
It’s because we have effective biometrics now, so the need to carry around an inconvenient limiting physical 2nd factor is obsolete (for the vast majority of regular use cases)
I have physical passkeys, one attached to my keys and another on my desk at home and I absolutely hate software based passkeys. Every single time I'm asked for a passkey it always ask me if I want to use my Apple Keychain first and I wish I could default to physical.
If a user doesn’t have a second factor, what should their first and only factor be? The passkey people are trying to posit that a passkey is better than a password as the only factor.
Second factor should be gradually ushered in everywhere over a period of years, starting with banking, until it becomes second nature for users. This would effectively end concerns over strong or reused passwords, and would make phishing incredibly difficult.
Under this scenario, the first factor can be a short password or even a PIN.
Passkeys are great in that its turning login support on websites into simple "autheticate your device to seamlessly login". My biggest gripe is that it seems Apple/Google are using this to consolidate control into their own password ecosystems and don't support password managers as a store for passkeys.
Surprised to see so much hate towards passkeys. I absolutely love them when I can use them with Bitwarden and my own SSO.
Sucks when I am limited to hardware tokens like yubikeys.
I continue to avoid passkeys but it's becoming an incredibly dense minefield. Certain sites try to trick me into adding one each time I log in and I have to be careful to dismiss the 1Password prompt, then dismiss the chrome prompt, then dismiss the OS-level prompt (all back-to-back). It's so incredibly user-hostile.
Where do you have so many sites asking for passkeys? I’m desperately trying to have more but I have ~1.1k passwords in my password manager and only 63 passkeys!
It's the banks/Amazon/etc-type places that keep prompting me, coupled with random one-off websites here and there. When I upgrade my phone in a month or so I'm dreading the deluge of passkey requests I'll run into and having to deny it multiple times per initial login.
My annoyance with the prompts is not evenly spread over the sites I use, it just so happens the same sites that think short login periods = security (it does not) are also the same sites that think passkeys are the best thing since sliced bread.
I have such a low opinion of any company that logs me out every time I turn around and those are the same disrespectful companies that think it's appropriate to spam me with passkey requests when I login. My dislike also extends to those companies they have a "Remember me" or "Remember this choice" checkbox that is decorative, as in it doesn't do anything. Often paired with clicking external links in things like a banking website "Warning: You are leaving this site!", yeah, I know how the internet works, I don't need to be babied by a completely ineffectual dialog (if you think normies are reading that and not just clicking through, you are living in a fantasy world).
Interesting. For the GAFAM yeah, I got those. But for banks, in my country at least, I’m not sure they are even allowed to use passkeys. Instead we have a glorious numerical keypad where we have to manually click on the keys and the keys are never at the same place. I’d love to have passkeys instead…
Three of those four prompts are opt-in and configurable and aren’t the site’s fault, no? I disable the browser and OS password managers because I use 1Password… why do you have the Chrome and OS password managers enabled if you’re using 1Password? Or if there’s some reason you need them all available, at least rather than dismissing the prompts, why not add an entry to disabling prompting for a specific site in the 2 managers you don’t want to see again? All three support that.
I didn't like the passkeys that were handled by Google and only worked on my phone. But now that most of them support bitwarden they are really convenient.
My thinking is that Passkey is an extremely good and, in theory, extremely easy solution to security, authorization, and login issues. The problem is that Google, Apple, and Microsoft have done a just horrendous job, and made it suck as much as possible.
They didn't want to cooperate, and they wanted to make passkeys transferable within you cloud account, while not cooperating with anyone or anything else. The result was that you have no predictable and stable pattern/protocol/interface, or even general description, for how, for instance, a website connects to the passkey or even a hardware key, if you wanted it.
We basically have all the browsers, the operating systems, and the password managers, all fighting over who gets to store and present the passkey. And everybody assumes that they are the only one that exists and actively tries to fight the others is they can.
The basic technology is really good and could work well, but the large asshole tech firms focused on self-interest and walled gardens and made it insufferable.
Passkeys work nicely, and I'll use them, in cases where I want decent security, but I don't consider them the "Philosopher's Stone" of regular end-user security. I think they are still a bit too "fiddly" for your average Joe[line].
To guard against lockout, you need to be able to log in from multiple devices. But you don’t need to copy passkeys around to do that! Instead, generate a new one for each device. This is similar to setting up ssh by copying public keys, not private keys.
(Or since syncing passkeys usually works within ecosystems, you might just need a passkey per OS.)
I try to boycott passkeys due to built-in attestation feature in the standard. Not active now, but given how Google+Apple already use the passkey feature to lock you into their ecosystems, it is just a matter of time until their service will require that the passkey is attested from a non-rooted Google or Apple device. I think this will especially be true for Google to prevent AI scraping bots. Turning this on does not require anything, once passkeys are widely used, Apple, Google and Co. simply can flip a switch.
It's the stupidity of Service Providers to adopt passkeys in the first place.
As a service provider myself, I've evaluated and said "Nah" to passkeys - because it's simply increased Customer Service contacts I have to invest in, whenever a user changes or loses devices, or any of the hundreds of ways Passkeys are not portable.
And guess what, the Tech companies pushing this have zero liability for user login support or security breaches. It's always me. There is no need for me to work hard and spend CS contacts, to wall off my users to the OS or Browser vendor.
I'll simply do passwordless Email or SMS 2FA / Magic Links and own my users without the overhead of Customer contacts, thank you.
I understand many passkey complaints but not this one. Why, for you as a service provider, are passkeys not just better (or at least equivalent to) passwords? You collect and verify an email address at signup and the account can be recovered in the same way as with passwords, or passwordless-email. No CS-verified recovery needed.
I had to setup a Passkey recently and wanted to store it in 1Password and the experience was quite absurd.
I don't know who designed this or who thinks these are acceptable affordances, but it seem to be part of the same disingenuous push that's behind passkeys in general.
I love passkeys as a tech enthusiast with a password manager that can hang on to them but I don’t love them as a confusing user experience for the average joe.
I also don’t love how many websites and apps use them in stupid ways like using them alongside other 2FA or login methods when the passkey alone should be sufficient.
You’re the first person in these comments to mention 2FA with passkeys.
My gripe with passkeys is they are almost always implemented without a second factor.
You’ve mentioned the rare case of 2FA with a passkey as being a bad thing, but in my opinion those few cases are actually doing it RIGHT.
With passwords and 2FA, if someone manages to copy your primary authenticator (password) they will still be locked out because they don’t have your secondary authenticator. This protects you against malware that steals your password database.
But the way most companies implement passkeys (single auth), if someone steals your passkey database they can use it immediately. For all of the true measurable benefits that passkeys bring (not memorizable, higher entropy, automatic storage and use in a database) they are almost always used in a way that has this huge drawback: no 2FA.
This is not an issue with passkeys directly, it’s an issue with how services implement passkeys.
That's why I just implanted my NFC passkeys. I've got one in my left hand and one in my right forearm. If I lose access to them, I have other, much larger problems.
The author talks about the problem with using hardware keys, but they neglect to mention that many websites and apps simply do not allow the use of hardware keys! They will insist you use Apple or Google syncable keys. So after you have spent the money to buy 2 or 3 hardware keys, you find that they are not accepted.
Personally I love passkeys and think it’s not deployed enough. It works great (for me anyways!) and it is SO MUCH better than “login with email” that is everywhere now.
I went in expecting yet another screed about how passkeys were not issued by RMS in a FOSS encyclical, and therefore not only were they insecure, but they were also a morally bankrupt abomination. I was pleasantly surprised to read an actual thoughtful critique, albeit one I largely disagree with.
The author's assertion that the greatest risk to an individual is account lockout versus phishing or password harvesting is just not grounded in reality. I get phishing emails and SMSs daily. The criminal ecosystem running these campaigns is extremely active already and set to become even more so with LLMs. These campaigns are by far the biggest threat to normies.
Whereas account lockout happens most often with multiple failed password entries, which passkeys completely eliminate. I just don't know where this risk evaluation comes from.
The author also points out that even with passkeys, if you're able to also log in with e.g. security questions, you still have a much weaker security footprint for that account. This is true, but it's also true of a TOTP second factor. So I'm not sure what the criticism is here.
The exportability argument is a real weakness and something I'd like to see addressed. Passkeys don't have an equivalent for backup TOTP codes that you can just write down somewhere or trivially store yourself. But it probably wasn't in v1 because the people who designed passkeys figured that websites would not go all in on them immediately and would preserve other authentication methods, which is exactly what's happened.
Every time passkeys are brought up on HN it’s nothing but complaining and/or refusing to learn the basics about something new, but I’ve been switching to them on every site I can for months with literally no problems.
1Password everywhere, on iOS, Mac, and Windows. I’ve run into none of the issues elsewhere in the comments. Everything just works, including in-app logins.
Maybe your other password managers are just bad at implementing the right browser/OS hooks?
Passkeys work great with Bitwarden too. With it being set up on all of my devices I actually often prefer the passkey experience. Too many people depend on OS password managers or even the ones built into their browsers.
From TFA: "Both Apple and Google want your identity anchored to their operating systems. The “happy path” on their devices is to use their synced passkey management tied to your Apple or Google account. If their automated systems decide one day to ban your account, you irreversibly lose access to all your passkeys used across all third-party accounts too."
This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem with passkeys. I'd like to adopt them, but this is a blocker.
Related: the UX is currently terrible. Every time I go to a website that has passkey flow, I'm presented with:
- MacOS native UI; which I cancel; then I see
- Bitwarden UI; which I cancel; then I see
- Chrome UI; which I cancel;
Passkeys lock you into a third-party provider ecosystem that you really should be trying hard to avoid getting locked into. They also add a quantum safety risk. Stay away.
Well I like them, as an option. I offer using passkeys and email interchangeably; if you lose one you can recover with the other. Passwords, SMS, TOTP are out for me.
By using passkeys, you gain better security against man-in-the-middle attacks but face the higher probability scenario of losing access to your accounts.
Phishing through the standard login flow is eliminated by passkeys, but it creates a false sense of security. An account’s security is still dictated by the weakest recovery method: SMS, email links, security questions, and so on.
Passkeys are too strong and may cause account loss.
Passkeys are too weak and can be bypassed by account recovery.
Just yesterday I was showing to a friend how I logged in my self-hosted forge with my own hardware key.
0 intermediary yet proper and convenient authentication. If that friend ate the key (which he didn't) I'd just use my backup key, a cheaper non biometric one.
I think it's not more popular because people don't care enough about security to buy actual keys, rely instead of 3rd parties that they don't actually trust, e.g. Microsoft, Google, etc then... complain it's not good enough.
Username and password was a predictable flow. Passkeys are just a small component in the modern obstacle race of logging in. Every few months a new credential or ritual to access your own resources .
These are the four flaws with Passkeys I've found after implementing them on our website. I actually like them now. But, It made me discover why people dislike them. The vast majority of problems are _the way websites implement them_ and _the way password managers today_ work.
Website problems:
* First big problem: you try to kludge them as an "add-on" to a password or SMS "2fa". Just rip the band aide off and let people go 100% passkey by default. It's actually really easy for users. We do a push at the end of their onboarding flow and have a 95% conversion. Users love it and its seamless.
* Don't make people enter a username. Just have a "login with passkey" button first, and thats it. If the HIPPO in your organizations insists a username-password still be available, make the user navigate to a secondary page first to do so. Make the passkey the first-class citizen.
Password Manager problems:
* Google, Apple, Microsoft are trying to lock people in to proprietary password managers. Microsoft's password manager, plus their "microsoft account" experience is a steaming pile of shit. The key here would be portability. An export format exists for the public key (thats how enrollment works): It's a but of digits in ANSI X9.62 format. Not hard. The private key would be an unbelievably simple export.
Protocol problems, and I'm happy to be wrong here:
* The client does not sign the server issued nonce (aka the 'challenge') during the authentication flow. This is kinda weird IMHO. Technically, yes it is secure, but it relies solely on the TLS channel heuristics. It'd be much better to have the client prove the signature on enrollment as layered security.
To address the author fears on attestation: This is a real threat to users... imagine a website "only accepting passkeys from OUR password manager". Luckily, Apple has done us all a favor and outright killed that part of the protocol by refusing to send this required fields there, protecting all users.
Overall, you should use them. We need one tiny change to the protocol and better password managers.
I don't know much about passkeys, I have never implemented them. I once tried to find out more about them but all I could see is "you're going to regret using this one day".
Passkeys suck because only the wealthiest 5% of the world is all-in on one ecosystem (such as Apple) while the remaining 95% uses a Windows laptop, an Android phone and (for the top 5-35%ish) maybe an iPad. All of these OSes push hard to get you to store your passkeys with THEM so it ends up a shitshow with everything scattered everywhere.
And why do the OSes push for this so hard? Because the goal of the execs is lock-in and control. And their lackeys here on HN who implement this stuff and their families are the 1% who are all-in on one ecosystem so they arrogantly believe "this all works great and the masses are just too stupid to get it".
Depends. They make it pretty easy for people who don't think about the consequences of things.
I worry I am going to get locked out of my Google account, muggles don't. Doesn't stop them from getting locked out.
Apple has a vision where you have an iPhone and a mac at home and a mac at work and a vision pro and an Apple TV and all of that and your passcodes "just work". Doesn't work for the "rest of us", like we're already used to AirPods punishing us for using Windows.
I just had a very annoying interaction with the tailscale Android app:
It wanted me to log in for some reason even though it had worked fine for months. Login uses my Google log in.
When I try that, Google asks me for a hardware key to complete the login, even though it's my phone and I'm already logged in.
Eventually I figured out that if you select "log in using another device" and then click cancel when it brings up the qr code, you can select a push notification on "another device", which actually pops up on the same device. Do that once and it fails. Do it a second time and it succeeds.
I hate them, mostly because I am forced to use them.
They provide crappy usability, they're expensive, they're easy to lose, you can't use the physical keys when doing remote desktop access.
My job requires me to use them. I use only for the job and nothing else. For sites requiring 2FA, I use TOTP (time-based one time passwords) from KeePassXC.
I take passkeys over the unbearable cargo cult that follows LLM companies, namely companies' newly found obsession to "sign in via email".
Ideally optionally followed by a 2FA (naturally, via text, delivered straight to my Mac, even further diluting the questionable security of the whole exercise) and naturally, to be repeated every 2 days or so, since "stay logged in" is the biggest lie after "I've read and accepted the ToS".
Your phone (which is probably what, 80% of relevant traffic these days?) likely has a perfectly fine password manager built in. This "sign in via email" trend must be every scammer and phishers biggest dream come true...
Almost everything has supported email-based password reset since 90's for all the problems it entails.
I am looking at a new project that uses magic links sent by texts. I have been there and done that with authentication systems and that's good enough for a low stakes ludic activity.
Passkeys are a fantastic technology. Since they are bound to the site they are created for, they cannot be phished by a hacker’s fake login screen.
The same is true for passwords with a password manager.
If a site suffers a data breach, passkeys are asymmetric and cannot be recovered from the server-side details.
Also not really a problem with randomly generated site-specific passwords in a password manager.
Really all the browser vendors had to do was add an API to make automatically generate a password that is then stored in the user's password manager the low friction option.
If you're doing that you might as well use public/private keys. The issues with passkeys are around user experience and education about how they are stored, and a lack of good backup options like enrolling a not-present device as opposed to relying on syncing them through an external service.
For me passkeys work wonderfully synced in Bitwarden on Windows, Linux, and Android.
I have no idea what this article trying to say, except some negative opinion that should IMO be ignored.
When storing passkeys in a password manager like Bitwardenor KeePassXC, you end up fighting the platform
Very odd. I use passkeys extensively with BitWarden and I love it to the point where it's my preferred way of securing things at this point.
The fact that the website presents the question to BitWarden in a structured way (what website, what username) means that I never fight with selecting the right account to get the password for (because I commonly have multiple accounts for a single site) and it generally makes the login flow much smoother.
Both Apple and Google want your identity anchored to their operating systems. The “happy path” on their devices is to use their synced passkey management tied to your Apple or Google account.
<sarcasm>On the plus side, this way passkeys can also be tied to age/identity verification.</sarcasm>
The article asserts with little proof that lockout risk is a big problem. But consumer sites themselves basically 100% of the time have a recovery path that amounts to a SMS code or emailed code.
The only part that is very persuasive is the part about storing your passkeys with Google or Apple integrations, and what happens if they ban your account. But the same argument would apply if you’re only storing your passwords in a Google or Apple password manager.
I use passkeys and I always store them in a password manager I control - but usually I also store another one in the OS on Windows, Apple, and Google. Best of all worlds. Also, I appreciate that idiots aren’t forcing me to “change my passkeys” every 90 months like they STILL do with passwords!
Passkeys have been a massive quality-of-life improvement. Yes, there's the minimal risk of lockout if you lose access to the passkey (though almost every site I've used that implements pk's lays it on top of their traditional user/pass auth flow), but generally speaking most people use iCloud or their Google account to store their passkeys, and because those sync everywhere, this isn't a real risk.
I love not needing to deal with 1Password's autofill being flakey and having to CMD-C/CMD-V passwords/passphrases/OTPs on these sites.
I like Yubikeys as well but they are super inconvenient by comparison when dealing with multiple devices. Setting them up is also very user-unfriendly in general; doubly so compared to passkeys.
Now, what I'd REALLY F'IN LOVE to see go away is the passwordless/magic link auth flow wherein you authenticate by clicking a magic link that gets sent to your email or text message inbox.
"Emails are super easy to hack and we're still not sure whether text messages are safe to send on US carriers, so let's have everyone click on a link sent by email or text so that they don't have to deal with those pesky passwords that iOS or Android will automatically suggest for them." Like, what?
Yes, there's the minimal risk of lockout if you lose access to the passkey (though almost every site I've used that implements pk's lays it on top of their traditional user/pass auth flow)
Exactly, if you lose your passkey you just sign in with your password like you did previously. I'm yet to find an app/website that has passkeys only and no passwords.
Passkeys match a very unique situation where I don't want to store anyone's email address, don't want them to type anything, generally want to store as little information as possible. Also don't want it to be easy for people to share/steal passwords/accounts, and prefer storing on the local device.
Windows still required entering a local PIN, sometimes 2-3 times. I think the account recovery didn't scale, though haven't really tested/explored with any real users :)
I've not yet encountered a site which has even suggested I use something like a passkey. Under the assumption that you're doing the Right Thing, and avoid using Apple, Alphabet and Microsoft's services - this is a non-issue. In fact, even if you use their non-login-requiring services (e.g. YouTube, Bing, Google search) - again no passkeys in your life.
They’re bad and I wish places would stop being so aggressive about them (I’m looking at you Amazon and PayPal)
Asking Amazon and Paypal to not do something bad is a big ask.
They exist for sole purpose companies can just shoot the "we have been hacked, but worry not your 'passwords' have not been leaked" email.
It's entirely one sided solution.
But they could always do that with regular passwords.
Like, no company should be storing anything but a salted hash of their users' passwords.
Passkeys have a marketing problem where no one is able to describe simply what it is without having to use technical jargon. There's also the problem where each OS tries too hard in pushing this to the face of end-user
It's a key, what else do non-technical people need to know?
Ironically on macOS we used to have an app called Keychain which unfortunately was effectively renamed to Passwords for non-technical users.
It's a digital key.
Unlike physical objects they may reside in a TPM, a software vault, an export/backup, or any combination thereof. You may or may not be able to recover or migrate them, depending on where/how they were made.
Therefore you may need multiple per service, or maybe not. Services which only allow one may end up locking you out with no recourse. You get to find out.
None of this is obvious or self explanatory to normies.
Probably because these caveats and weird behaviours are platform-dependent, not really the passkey’s fault.
Passkeys really are not any more difficult to explain than 2-factor authentication. Anyone who’s currently been able to actually create an Apple or Google account and successfully navigate their devices up to a passkey screen will be able to grok how it works.
People around here really ought to stop thinking users are complete idiots. Hell, you don’t even to scroll that far to read people calling users “normies” for crying out loud. What is this? High school?
You obviously dont have to deal with anybody who doesnt know how or want to use computers.
The keychain and passwords app are separate and keychain still exists
I always operated under the assumption that the passwords app was just a more casual view into the keychain
Maybe that's a bad assumption
They're separate stores. I was under the same assumption until I tried to use `security` to get a saved password. It doesn't work, and as far as I know there is no CLI for the Passwords app's store.
My bigger problem with passkeys is how there's no universal way to register more than one device (in case the first one is lost).
Proton Pass. I moved to it and love it.
Proton Pass hardly meets the bar of "universal way to register more than one device"
Proton Pass is a specific way to do that, but not a universal way. Bitwarden can't use proton pass to move keys around, google can't, firefox can't.
This burden is on the site using passkeys. There should be some equivalent of “My Account > Security > Passkeys > Add Passkey.” There often isn’t, which is an incomplete implementation. And yes it’s frustrating.
Sites didn't need to do anything special for this use case with passwords so it is a passkey problem.
Imagine a password, but it a) types itself for you and b) detects when it's being sent to an impostor site and blocks them from seeing itself, so it can't be phished.
Tada, passkeys.
Cool, where are they stored? (I know the answer: 'it depends', and that's the big problem with their usability: most users haven't a clue what the answer is and most tech support can't answer that question straightforwardly because it depends on some decisions the user probably didn't even realise they made).
In a secure vault on your phone
Not always. And which vault? There can be multiple on a given device. This isn't some hypothetical 'mollify the user's worries' question, this is an important practical question of what do they need to worry about losing access to. Trust me when I say that most users I have talked to have absolutely no idea about this, and usually only find out when they've already lost them.
So if I drop my phone to the toilet, I will forever lose access to everything? Since the vault is on my phone.
How do I use it on my desktop or laptop then? What if I switch browsers on my phone? What if I get a new phone? What if I change from android to iOS or visa versa? What if I need to log into the site on my Wii U's browser?
On my keychain in a USB hardware token. With a couple of backup tokens in fire safes.
If you're using a USB hardware token your knowledge of it is at least an order of magnitude better than the median user's. I know where my passkeys are stored, I don't know where my family member's passkeys are stored and neither do they. The same is true for most of my otherwise fairly technical co-workers.
There needs to be industry and government leadership on this to gradually require hardware token usage, for at least critical financial and government applications. Right now everyone is putting their energy behind passkeys, but those are much harder to understand than a physical token. I don’t know any non-technical people who understand how passkeys are normally tied to the device (or the manufacturer-provided cloud account in some cases), how to set them up on a second device, why you might want to do that, etc. And many technical people still don’t get it either!
But how do I type it into my new phone?
It depends.
Are you part of the 99.99999% users of one of iOS+Apple or Androidlike+Google/Tencent or HarmonyOS+Huawei? If that's the case, you don't need to as the key is automagically saved by your OS' platform and synced with your new device.
Otherwise, you're such an extreme outlier that you probably either know what you're doing or can find out by yourself, right?
As others have pointed out, this is a terrible oversimplification which misses all the nuances which cause people headaches when using passkeys.
To your point, I for example would add point c) - Is linked to the device you are using currently. If you want to use another device to log in you are in a world of complexity and pain.
That's the main thing I wish was done better. There was barely any actual lead up from the perspective of an average person. Just a new unfamiliar flow on half of the login screens that they use.
Sure, its explained. But not in a satisfactory way that would reach all users at their level.
This is a bit of an exaggeration and out of proportion, but I think my ideal would be one of the big tech companies should have bought out something like a super bowl ad. Something that actually conveys the idea "hey, we know you've used passwords since you were able to type on a keyboard, but here's new technology that's better and here's why" in plain language that the average person can understand.
Unfortunately, XKCD 2501 continues to be relevant. [1]
[1] https://xkcd.com/2501/
The average person? I have a Master's and PhD in CS, code regularly, and have followed and used all the cool technologies from the days of gopher, telnet and Mosaic to crypto, and lately LLMs. And I still don't have a clear enough picture of passkeys to know really basic things like "what if we have a family computer but each wants to access their private accounts and keep the others from accessing?", "what do I need do to login from an airport computer?" or "what should I do if my phone is stolen?"
If it's that unclear to me, I can't imagine how it can be to the average user.
The way they explain them is atrociously unclear, borderline negligent for services that nag people to activate it for accounts where they may hold valuable data for their personal lives. And while I don't want to spend much time finding out the details as long as I have the option to decline them, I suppose if they can't explain it and convince people of its advantages, it's because it's just bad tech.
I cant upvote you enough for this very concise explanation of passkeys pain points.
Surely it's a pretty easy pitch to average Joe: Using a passkey takes the place of typing in a code they sent by text or email.
That's a pain point in everyone's day that should make the benefit easy to understand.
ok cool so when somebody logs into a site on their phone and sets up a passkey, then goes to their laptop and tried to log into the same account, how do you easily explain how to deal with this situation?
I tell people a website is like a payment terminal. Your device is like your debit card. A password is like a PIN on the card. A Passkey is like a chip on the card.
Logging into a site with your device is like putting your card into the terminal. The site can ask for a password the way the terminal asks for a PIN, but if your device supports Passkeys, that’s like your card having a chip, and it’ll use that instead.
So think of Passkeys like using a chip card.
I dunno how well this analogy works down to the last detail but it has gotten it across to all the parents I’ve used it with
Is there a reason why passkeys couldn't be used in "expire-periodically" mode?
Then how do you log in? Not all sites let you keep password logins after.
What benefit does that give you? Passkeys cannot be moved, by design. So for the website, recieving the same one means you're talking to the same device, always.
The purpose of rotating passwords is to cycle out potentially compromised ones, due to phishing attacks, keyloggers, shoulder snoops, etc. But those cannot exist with a passkey.
Doesn’t this mean that a compromised device with passkeys on it is worse than a compromised password since the passkeys can’t be rotated? I feel like the answer is obvious so there must be another angle I’m missing
They really are bad. Passkeys have turned out to be just another password that you cannot even memorize.
there's some issues with passkeys, but not being able to memorize them is a feature
And this is why people bash passkeys, but they hear a buzzword lol
So where do I keep my pass keys is the problem. They are in my password manager just like another password. So what's the point of having them because effectively, the passwords in the password manager and the passkey in the password manager offer the same UX to me? Except that at least I can memorize a password by heart just in case.
same ux, different security properties.
"just in case" should be a thought out recovery flow, rather than hoping that you remember the password of the account you need to access.
That is the point. They stop you from memorizing it “just in case” and reusing it, and they force you to use a password manager.
For the average user, which doesn’t use a password manager, this is great. It means they can’t get phished. And it’s also great for the average password manager user, who keeps dozens of insecure and reused passwords in their vault because they manually thought of a password when signing up instead of randomly generating one.
If you’re already using a password manager and random passwords, the UX is designed to be the same. It’s just a way to get regular people to do this.
While the technology itself may be great (I don't really know since I don't use them) it has been co-opted by the tech conglomerates as another form of isolating and walling off users into their ecosystems.
And honestly, nowadays, if tech companies are pushing really hard for something then that is an immediate red flag for me and it bears more scrutiny. One of those "if you see them running that way you run the opposite way".
It’s a bit ironic that Apple is the one that lets you export them.
They're also not supporting device attestation which would allow websites to insist on particular implementations of passkeys.
That's more because attestation breaks their passkey cross-device sync process, rather than out of benevolence.
The reason is the ever increasing number of hijacks of social media presences and code hosting portals, with the latter being a serious financial threat. Done right, passkeys stay in the Secure Enclave, at least for anything Apple and most of the Android sphere. There is no reasonable way to obtain login credentials for accounts protected by passkeys without physical access to the user's device(s).
Click "I lost my device", enter contact, get a reset link via email/sms
Email and SMS are not reasonable and both have an extraordinary number of flaws.
So use the recovery codes. Or scan the QR code and auth from another device
I’d buy that there are too many different confusing ways to recover from this situation, but not that it’s impossible
Fun fact: Google can decide to reject these. Lose access to the original device, try to rely on recovery codes to login with known current password on family member’s device… nope!
Sure, yet in the real world those are the acceptable means if you want your customer to continue to pay you when they've lost their phone.
The doubt is more "how will tech companies use passkeys as an excuse to do something stupid" than "passkeys themselves must have inherent problems because tech companies are pushing them".
Passkeys could be the savior of all security problems worldwide from a capability point of view and tech companies would still ruin it by trying to force ways it pushes you into their ecosystem instead of just being whats both secure and convenient.
As an example, I have 3 different passkey _APPS_ on my phone and cannot go down to one because of various reasons with each (such as MS authenticator, forced for integrating to Microsoft at work).
Exactly. That's why I'll never use passkeys: they're just another way to force us into a commercial walled garden.
Passwords with 2FA are simply better and more freedom friendly.
I just bought a passkey... It's a USB device, completely separate from any big conglomerates.
Yes, thank you. Maybe I am getting old but password+yubikey/webauthn was really top UX.
It most definitely isn't. Any 2nd factor that is not the device I am currently using (either a yubikey or my phone) has a non-zero chance of not being near me when I need it, leading to the constant question of "where the fuck did I put that darn thing", only to find out that the cat has decided to believe the yubikey is a mouse and tried to devour it, the phone's battery went dead...
What prevents passkey being used alongside password (+ email 2fa)?
Email 2fa otoh is the worst UX I have experienced. I curse every time Claude sends me a magic link. Absolutely hate them.
You don't like not having to worry that they don't store your creds so they can't lose it?
The creds they store hold no value. These creds only give access to their system anyway. They store the email address either way so the situation is no better but less convenient.
Do passkeys improve security posture for the average person, reducing the likelihood of them losing their accounts to fraudulent actors? Absolutely.
But they also introduce single points of failure, as the article points out. I can't even remember how many times I've had to help a family member recover their account or get confused when they can't sign in on a new device. It's incredibly frustrating that this flow is promoted as the default for so many services.
1password is the best solution I've found for the average person. It's not perfect (it's definitely more complex than writing down your passwords on a piece of paper or using the same password everywhere) but it's much easier than juggling yubikeys. I know so many non-technical staff members who prefer the OS or browser keys even if it means another account recovery is lurking around the corner.
Passkeys remind me of ipv6 in that they are a "solution" coming from the supply-side, without (apparently) having done any research in what motivates actual users (and what would motivate them to switch).
<<ducks>>
They make sense as a technology for businesses & their users. In that scenario, the owner of the account is not the user, but the business. It makes sense for the business to be able to place strong restrictions on how & where the user may log in, it fixes a lot of real problems businesses may have thanks to sloppy user behavior, and the business is also motivated to provide a way to fix broken logins. It's a good solution for that scenario.
But for regular end users where services are primarily motivated to take money from those users and lock them into their ecosystems, they are a usability disaster and yet another exploitation vector.
It's one solution for two very different usecases, and it just does not work. There is an approach that could work for end users who own their own accounts, but they need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite the protocol with the assumption that the keystore is hostile to the user's interests. That means strong guarantees on key portability so users can migrate away from hostile keystores, and absolutely no ability for services to restrict the user's choice in passkey provider software.
I think passkeys were made to work in mind with complete idiots (here's a pop-up, tap it, now you have access to website without password, don't think about where it was saved or that it exists at all). I can understand parts of IPv6 like Router Advertisement being like that but there is so much customizability for the user that I can't really see them being similar that way.
I agree with all the points this articulates. I understand why for many users they are great. But I would prefer better acceptance and continuance of the simpler, unfishable, u2f simple hardware keys.
The experience is also junk if you're using a password manager, I have passkeys that I'm not sure if I saved to the OS manager or my password manager... mostly my fault but I enter passwords so many times a day it can be hard to stay on top of which UI I'm clicking yes in to store them.
Password managers are great IMO, I can use some absurdly long password, backup is reliable, I can use them across devices. For extra secure stuff 2FA works the same, I've got an app with codes I can easily back up and use from multiple devices.
Passkeys tend to obscure everything and take away a lot of control.
Completely agree. I think the root of many of its issues is the inability to add a key that you don't currently hold. This prevents me from storing a backup key in a safe, for example.
I proposed an alternative scheme many years ago: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343318317_Privacy-a... . By allowing "offline" keys you can also treat them as higher priority, and use them to revoke any lesser keys from attackers if your account is compromised.
It would also be nicer to get rid of usernames, but that's a fight against the data-gathering powers that we're unlikely to win.
YES. This exactly. I work across multiple devices, some of which are nonstandard/uncommon (Linux, Xiaomi China ROM, ...) and I've NEVER had passkeys work properly - yet everything constantly prompts me to add one. Even if they did work, I'd have to carry around hardware keys or register each computer separately. And the lack of backups if a device is lost/broken is definitely a larger concern for me than being phished of my TOTP keys.
My wife clicked through a Google dialog and suddenly was using a passkey. It absolutely happens, though IMO more to the non technical users. I know what those login dialogs and pop ups mean, and decline them.
(At least til I get around to setting up my new usb c yubikeys!)
Same as traditional physical keys, you don't have a single key, you have multiple ones precisely so that if you lose/break one, you are not stuck and can go to the local locksmith and get another one in minutes.
In fact it's even nicer since you can just re-use the backup key with no security loss by revoking the other one, and buying another key.
As someone who uses a single password manager on my computer and phone, I don't see the problem with passkeys. I use Safari on both and I never even had to "set up" anything.
I can see why they would be problematic for people who otherwise live life with a single love2025 password though.
Imagine you lose your computer and phone. How do you recover your digital accounts? This happens every day to someone. The most common scenario being a house fire or robbery.
The same way you recover your account when you lose a password.
I like using passkeys in bitwarden from Firefox, I just wish it didn't popup a dialog that's usually behind the browser.
Passkeys do marginally improve security against MITM and phishing attacks, but they are primarily for protecting the lowest common denominator from themselves: people who re-use passwords and/or don't use a password manager.
If you use multiple devices throughout the day, registering passkeys in all of these systems becomes a big headache with O(m*n) complexity, so putting the passkeys in a password manager is the only realistic solution. But this still breaks the login flow for a very common use case: how do I log in on a device that I don't own? With a password in a password manager I at least have the option of manually typing the password.
The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for. I've accidentally set up passkeys just by clicking an okay button a few times in the past and had to go back and figure out how to undo it after being blocked from login on another computer (which computer was I on again?).
Sad reality is that such usecase is less and less common, thus, no one cares about it. I think majority of my friends would not be able to access their email, or facebook or alike, if they were forced to use my computer in emergency.
Which is a trade-off that makes sense for a lot of people. If you have multiple devices, many of which are portable and one you have on you all the time, the need for that is just way lower, so being more secure against commonplace automated widespread attacks is worth it to them.
Isn't there a workflow where you scan a QR code to confirm the pass key on your phone?
I've definitely done this, but not sure if the workflow was at the OS or browser level.
I'm honestly confused by all the negativity in the comments. Passkeys are great for convenience. Just leave your password login enabled as a backup. That defeats any security benefit, but oh well.
There is. Doesn't work on every browser but it's really nice and I use it routinely.
For people in this position, if they had their phone, they probably wouldn't be logging in on a computer anyway.
The offer a strong protection against phishing attacks that would still get plenty of password manager users: fake websites. A passkey is strongly linked to a domain, so a fake site can't get that credential.
Some password managers will only fill if a domain matches, but IRL the response I've seen from most users when it doesn't match is to assume the integration broke and manually copy/paste it in. I've also seen lots of them do stuff like happily autofill on any prefix of the domain, so your credential for `something.example.com` will autofill into `fake-something.example.com`.
How did fake-something get injected as a subdomain?
Loads of hosting sites do this, username.domain.tld is the most common one.
I guess it's a good thing my bank doesn't have a free web hosting service
Why would you trust the very same password managers that don't handle passwords properly to handle passkeys properly?
Gell-Mann amnesia effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#%22Gell-Mann_...
You don't. The browser handles the passkey matching to the domain which is obviously a better place to do it. There could obviously still be bugs as with all things, but it's much more intentionally integrated into the flow which makes it much harder to bypass.
I'm not sure why you're making a distinction. In many cases the browser is the password manager.
Right, I haven't seen that particular flaw in baked-into-the-browser ones (probably because they already having secure domain matching code ready to use), but the distinction is that doing the domain check is a part of the spec and standard, so e.g: sites aren't going to break it by changing the log-in subdomain routinely, as has been common historically.
Password managers have had to be permissive enough to work with most websites, and there is no standard for it. There have been sites that blocked the autofilling of passwords and so on as well.
My point wasn't this one particular flaw in some password managers is the reason to use passkeys (the copy/paste point is the much bigger issue anyway), just that it's an example of how relatively brittle the password manager process is. Having it a core part of the spec gives stronger guarantees.
The users are the ones manually copy/pasting the password. There's no way the password manager could prevent this short of disallowing copying/viewing passwords.
I've seen people do this AFK as well, and I'm always helpfully suggesting them the correct way of solving this: verifying the URL again, and if correct, add it to the password manager so it remembers in the future, and never copy-paste passwords on the web. Basically 50/50 if they take the advice or come back after a week asking if it's safe to copy-paste the password into the website, and I try to inform again.
Shockingly, I saw one developer peer copy-pasting a password into a website, but I guess for these people there is no hope.
It should be a big red flag for sure, but the reality is most users aren't going to understand that. They got told to use a password manager by someone or find it convenient, but they don't understand the security flow enough to catch that it's a potential attack, or how to resolve it safely.
Historically I've seen lots of sites do a subdomain shuffle for login pages every now and then which routinely breaks domain matching, introducing false positives that users have to deal with, making them numb to the threat too. Passkeys baking in the domain check with no workaround means that sites can't do that, which is a benefit.
"Oh, usually my bank just logs me in, that's strange. Let me just go grab my username and password and type it into this site that looks like my bank."
Same thing is going to happen with passkeys for non-technical users for exactly the same reason you stated. People will think the integration is busted and manually copy/paste the non-passkey credentials in. In that way, I would argue that passkey is not stronger protection against phishing attacks unless its the only way to login. It is, at best, a convenience for users.
If the user just has a username/password fallback and that's it, then yes, but the aim of passkeys is that won't be the norm, rather users will only have passkeys and the fallback would be to, e.g: magic link email log in where the phishing attack is still broken. I've seen some sites explicitly disallow plain username/password login after you enable passkeys for this reason (you can still put them in, but then it just does a magic link flow afterwards as a second factor).
The pitch is that passwords will supposedly be phased out entirely as an option.
Which is a laudible goal, but something that makes "oh just fall back to the standard insecure recovery process" not a very good response to the concerns about users being able to actually hold on to their passkeys easily and reliably.
This is solved by passkey-implementing software and devices (with Bluetooth) allowing you to log in with a QR code (Webauthn via CTAP hybrid transport). iOS and Android support this, and it’s generally not a locked-down thing if other devices wanted to do it too.
The only use case left is in “how do I login if all my devices are stolen/fall into a body of water” in which there really isn’t an answer beyond “get (a|your) device back, sign back into your password manager, use that to get back into critical accounts”.
What if the computer you want to log in on doesn't have Bluetooth? Probably most public computers (like ones in libraries) don't have it.
The website should display a qr code you can scan with your phone that allows you to then login, unfortunately a lot of sites don't implement this, and some don't implement backup codes. This isn't the fault of passkeys per se, but of poor implementations.
How does scanning the barcode with your phone log you into the computer? Does your phone need network access for that?
If you're not happy connecting your phone to the network, then how likely is it that you would you be willing to enter your login details on a machine you don't control?
Poor people exist.
The poorest country I'm familiar with is Zambia, where about 90% of the population have a mobile subscription.
The number of people sharing GP's concerns for reasons of poverty rather than because of their personal security posture will be vanishingly small.
What if you just can't have internet on your phone? Like if the computer is connected via Ethernet and there's no wifi network you can connect to? What if you're abroad and have no roaming? And the ultimate question about a person that the modern world can barely conceptualize - what if you have a dumbphone? Or what if your smartphone is lost or stolen or dead and you need to access some account? That last one has happened to me, and I sure am glad I know the key passwords that I need for survival.
These may seem like nitpicks, but there's probably a thousand rare scenarios like these that exist. You inevitably have to consider them when you're moving from punching in letters and numbers that you remember in the normal, low-tech way to a complex networked two-device workflow.
If my phone is lost or damaged, I would buy a new, cheap Android phone and sync my passkeys to it. But I am curious why one would need to login to a website in order to survive? If one did have say a severe medical condition that somehow required a website in order to manage, I guess I would concede that maybe passkeys aren't the best way to secure such a life-sustaining website.
Steam does this. If I want to login, it shows a barcode I can scan with the app and it logs me in without needing to enter my login information. Phone needs internet access, doesn't need to be on the same network as the device I'm logging in on.
I assume the QR code contains a token for the device, which is used by the app to authorize the login and the server automatically logs in the client on the device with the matching token.
Seems a lot safer to me than using my login credentials on a potentially unsafe device.
Yes, this is how it could work, or it could display a code you type into your phone.
what good is a phone if it isn't on a network?
My suggestion would be to not do that. But keep a password and an offline TOTP app if you must. It’s still an option.
Passkey on NFC/USB hardware token (x2)
They're cheap enough if you lose one it's not the end of the world. Goes on your keyring. Doesn't require esim management. Use NFC swipe/usb-plug-in + pin to use.
The problem isn't the cost of replacing it, the problem is - how do you log in when all your passkey-bearing devices just got flushed down the toilet?
Enrolling two devices stored in different locations for every sign up is extremely annoying.
I suspect that most people that ostensibly do this actually only enroll one for non-critical accounts and then depend on some fallback mechanism.
iCloud Keychain? Is there a reason not to use it? Aside from having android.
My MIL setup a passkey accidentally on her Google account and now has no idea where it is. Removing it now requires her password which she’s also forgotten. But now for some reason on Google I can’t initiate any type of forgot your password flow because of how Google sets up things and I have zero clue where she stored the passkey.
Doesn't the passkey have to be on her phone or computer?
I'm just storing my passkeys in 1password, which means they're synced across my two computers and phone and also means I gave up any kind of hardware security.
Oh well.
No doubt there exist services that do not offer recovery method for passkey or mfa enabled account. But this is entirely on them (the service), to blame for, not the passkeys or the users. It’s bad implementation.
I agree 100% i learned that my old school with whom I had linked to my windows computer and finished my degree with one day required passkeys rather than passwords on all devices. This force locked my windows PC back to passkey mode luckily I remember recovery account and got a passkey to work. But it took months to figure out why I had to use it. All the help board were said just click this button which was grayed out. Or set this register key which auto repopulated. It was an awful experience. I like my password as default
Ah yeah, Microsoft has this awful habit of just hiding the buttons for actions you don't have permission to do, which makes me feel like I'm being gaslit sometimes when a guide says 'there's a button right here' and there's not, and I've no idea if the button was just moved or if not, why it's not available (sometimes it's because I don't have permission, but sometimes it's because it's a different product with the same name and branding as a completely different product).
Passkeys have made my life very easy. Especially using Proton Vault.
If you think passkeys aren't ready yet, blame the people implementing it on their platforms.
If the concept isn't easily understood nor well implemented by the majority of platforms, it's not a good concept.
We've been using SSH keys which behave the same for years. At this point it's mostly clowning by old farts in these articles.
I'm was tempted to come in here and say "you're holding it wrong." But then I quickly realized that I had to spend weeks changing my behaviors and messing around with devices in order to get it to work correctly.
As someone who's OpSec puts swiss cheese to shame Passkey has been a godsend. My passwords are actually much better because of it.
I will say it. They are all holding it wrong. But it's not their fault. Its how the platforms designed their implementation of it.
If you have to use passkeys, try KeePassXC and KeePassXC-Browser. I used them to set one up for Amazon a few days ago, as Amazon now forces passkeys as of this month, at least for my account. It was relatively painless.
That said, I don't like passkeys either.
Ecosystem is not mature yet for individuals?
Probably hundreds of millions or even billion people have devices that support biometric auth. How is that not mature?
Devices that break or get lost, and then either the user had password authentication activated all the time anyway in addition to the passkey, or they have the classic "mother's maiden name" recovery path, or they get locked out of their account.
Brilliant security: a highly secure high-tech shiny front door that can randomly fail to open, so you still need the low-tech back door, which is the one potential thieves will use.
Mind you, it can work if the back door is old but sturdy (basically, for a bank that will ask for KYC authentication, or in the worst case you can set foot in the brick-and-mortar branch showing your face and ID and ask for access) but for pretty much every other service it introduces risks for very little or no gain.
The point about poor support for 3rd party managers is so frustrating. Because this is correct, that is the obvious solution for the normal user, but passkey implementations somehow do not know how to deal with it.
Amazon prompts me to create a passkey everytime I log in, even when I logged in with a passkey, because my passkeys live in Bitwarden rather than my OS or browser.
And the confusing mechanism hurts there too: I'm always a little bit afraid that i'm somehow more in danger because I keep them in a vault that's shared on all my devices rather than a TPM, because whenever the protocol is explained the "it can't leave your device" part is highlighted as the main source of the security, except.... mine obviously do leave my device, with the vault, so.....
Yet, the Apple + Google implementations will sync passkeys between your devices. "Securely", of course. (I've seen first hand how Apple implements this, and it seems.... sound)
Sites can request hardware-bound tokens, which would block any software based password managers. It's an option in the protocol but one not yet widely utilized.
Which is a problem.
It should not be in the protocol. And I don't trust Apple and Google not to lock it away from me.
I want my own open source manager and if that is attempted I want it to lie about it.
So is there a problem with Apple or no?
What setup are you using? Because I don't have that problem on Linux + Firefox at all
I've resisted passkeys for some of the reasons listed. I use third-party password managers, they're device/system independent, and I can export the data when I want to. I don't see passkeys as a big advantage, or perhaps I should say the bigger advantage isn't really for the _user_.
Of course, at the rate we see security failures everywhere, I'm not entirely convinced writing your passwords on post-it notes wasn't such a bad idea after all.
Keepass2Android without network permissions saving the file to a folder monitored by Syncthing is pretty good though - it keeps responsibilities nicely separated.
I am conflicted with passkeys.
I actually prefer non-resident U2F in some ways. You don't have to store anything on your key, you are just signing requests. This is relevant where U2F/FIDO keys have limited slots for 'resident' keys.
In principle, it's great. You have one good password to remember for the average user, and that's enforced by their device's probably good enough security posture.
They are resistant to being phished and they won't reuse the same one everywhere. They then don't end up going from hunter2 to hunter2! everywhere.
But my experience for users is that they worry they are giving their biometrics to Amazon or whoever and so the UX just confuses them.
The certification aspect was new to me too last time passkeys came up. Sites can require that a given passkey has been certified.
The patchy support for them is also frustrating. MacOS does not support NFC FIDO/U2F. iOS does.
using them with 1password has been pretty effortless. 'want to add the passkey' sure why not. 'want to use the passkey?' sure why not. for me it works across devices/os/platform so not sure what the big gripe is tbh.
Account lockout as the author mentions is the biggest risk on personal accounts.
Passkeys just make it harder/riskier.
Two crucial things you can do with a password that you can't do with a passkey:
1. Write it down on a piece of paper and put it in a safe deposit box.
2. Read it on one device (or from a piece of paper!) and enter it manually on another device.
Plain text is the ultimate form of cross-platform portability. Passkeys are the ultimate form of vendor lockdown. The passkey vendors won't even allow you to view the private key, unlike with ssh keys, which you can also write down on a piece of paper. It's vendor cabal to destroy computing freedom in the name of "security", always the excuse. Tech company paternalism at its worst.
This is exactly how I feel about it.
If passkeys were meant to be user friendly then there'd be a secure optical transfer mode to QR code them from device to device with the screen and camera.
Easy to implement (receiver flashes a public key, sender encrypts to that key and flashes the QR code back).
That it doesn't exist for a protocol meant to work with phones tells you exactly where the thinking was headed.
This is generally the same experience I've had.
Microsoft is especially poorly prepared for this - Often if you have a passkey, it will CONTINUE To ask you to create a passkey (a new and different one), and it may save it in a different place, which is infuriating.
Strong password + MFA is the way, and I don't see that changing.
I absolutely hate them and avoid them everywhere I can. I'm not bound to a single device or I don't want to get bound to some, and some pages quit your option with a normal password login after setting up a passkey. Absolutely frustrating.
I have said before, I'm personally not interested using "Something I have"/"device bound" as an authentication factor. I'm also not interested in the sync "workarounds" that store keys in the cloud.
People have replied it's possible to extract the private key, but it's not clear to me that that's usable (maybe it is I don't know). It's certainly not in line with what passkey devs want people to do and not do, so I'm not interested in "fighting" against the "flow" so to speak.
I'm happy with TOTP, as I can manage and use the codes where I want, under my control.
I don’t like how tokens have gradually evolved from a secure 2F device that you carry with you (Yubikey etc) to a single factor “passkey” that’s built in to your computer/phone, or worse, a password manager with export capability.
It should always have remained a second factor device. It’s not impossible to teach people to use these, European banking did it for years. There’s just no will to do it.
It’s because we have effective biometrics now, so the need to carry around an inconvenient limiting physical 2nd factor is obsolete (for the vast majority of regular use cases)
We also have devices with yubikeys built-in now.
I 100% agree with this.
I have physical passkeys, one attached to my keys and another on my desk at home and I absolutely hate software based passkeys. Every single time I'm asked for a passkey it always ask me if I want to use my Apple Keychain first and I wish I could default to physical.
If a user doesn’t have a second factor, what should their first and only factor be? The passkey people are trying to posit that a passkey is better than a password as the only factor.
Second factor should be gradually ushered in everywhere over a period of years, starting with banking, until it becomes second nature for users. This would effectively end concerns over strong or reused passwords, and would make phishing incredibly difficult.
Under this scenario, the first factor can be a short password or even a PIN.
Passkeys are great in that its turning login support on websites into simple "autheticate your device to seamlessly login". My biggest gripe is that it seems Apple/Google are using this to consolidate control into their own password ecosystems and don't support password managers as a store for passkeys.
Surprised to see so much hate towards passkeys. I absolutely love them when I can use them with Bitwarden and my own SSO. Sucks when I am limited to hardware tokens like yubikeys.
I continue to avoid passkeys but it's becoming an incredibly dense minefield. Certain sites try to trick me into adding one each time I log in and I have to be careful to dismiss the 1Password prompt, then dismiss the chrome prompt, then dismiss the OS-level prompt (all back-to-back). It's so incredibly user-hostile.
Where do you have so many sites asking for passkeys? I’m desperately trying to have more but I have ~1.1k passwords in my password manager and only 63 passkeys!
It's the banks/Amazon/etc-type places that keep prompting me, coupled with random one-off websites here and there. When I upgrade my phone in a month or so I'm dreading the deluge of passkey requests I'll run into and having to deny it multiple times per initial login.
My annoyance with the prompts is not evenly spread over the sites I use, it just so happens the same sites that think short login periods = security (it does not) are also the same sites that think passkeys are the best thing since sliced bread.
I have such a low opinion of any company that logs me out every time I turn around and those are the same disrespectful companies that think it's appropriate to spam me with passkey requests when I login. My dislike also extends to those companies they have a "Remember me" or "Remember this choice" checkbox that is decorative, as in it doesn't do anything. Often paired with clicking external links in things like a banking website "Warning: You are leaving this site!", yeah, I know how the internet works, I don't need to be babied by a completely ineffectual dialog (if you think normies are reading that and not just clicking through, you are living in a fantasy world).
Interesting. For the GAFAM yeah, I got those. But for banks, in my country at least, I’m not sure they are even allowed to use passkeys. Instead we have a glorious numerical keypad where we have to manually click on the keys and the keys are never at the same place. I’d love to have passkeys instead…
Three of those four prompts are opt-in and configurable and aren’t the site’s fault, no? I disable the browser and OS password managers because I use 1Password… why do you have the Chrome and OS password managers enabled if you’re using 1Password? Or if there’s some reason you need them all available, at least rather than dismissing the prompts, why not add an entry to disabling prompting for a specific site in the 2 managers you don’t want to see again? All three support that.
I didn't like the passkeys that were handled by Google and only worked on my phone. But now that most of them support bitwarden they are really convenient.
My thinking is that Passkey is an extremely good and, in theory, extremely easy solution to security, authorization, and login issues. The problem is that Google, Apple, and Microsoft have done a just horrendous job, and made it suck as much as possible.
They didn't want to cooperate, and they wanted to make passkeys transferable within you cloud account, while not cooperating with anyone or anything else. The result was that you have no predictable and stable pattern/protocol/interface, or even general description, for how, for instance, a website connects to the passkey or even a hardware key, if you wanted it.
We basically have all the browsers, the operating systems, and the password managers, all fighting over who gets to store and present the passkey. And everybody assumes that they are the only one that exists and actively tries to fight the others is they can.
The basic technology is really good and could work well, but the large asshole tech firms focused on self-interest and walled gardens and made it insufferable.
Eh. Not worth complaining about.
Passkeys work nicely, and I'll use them, in cases where I want decent security, but I don't consider them the "Philosopher's Stone" of regular end-user security. I think they are still a bit too "fiddly" for your average Joe[line].
To guard against lockout, you need to be able to log in from multiple devices. But you don’t need to copy passkeys around to do that! Instead, generate a new one for each device. This is similar to setting up ssh by copying public keys, not private keys.
(Or since syncing passkeys usually works within ecosystems, you might just need a passkey per OS.)
I try to boycott passkeys due to built-in attestation feature in the standard. Not active now, but given how Google+Apple already use the passkey feature to lock you into their ecosystems, it is just a matter of time until their service will require that the passkey is attested from a non-rooted Google or Apple device. I think this will especially be true for Google to prevent AI scraping bots. Turning this on does not require anything, once passkeys are widely used, Apple, Google and Co. simply can flip a switch.
It's the stupidity of Service Providers to adopt passkeys in the first place.
As a service provider myself, I've evaluated and said "Nah" to passkeys - because it's simply increased Customer Service contacts I have to invest in, whenever a user changes or loses devices, or any of the hundreds of ways Passkeys are not portable.
And guess what, the Tech companies pushing this have zero liability for user login support or security breaches. It's always me. There is no need for me to work hard and spend CS contacts, to wall off my users to the OS or Browser vendor.
I'll simply do passwordless Email or SMS 2FA / Magic Links and own my users without the overhead of Customer contacts, thank you.
I understand many passkey complaints but not this one. Why, for you as a service provider, are passkeys not just better (or at least equivalent to) passwords? You collect and verify an email address at signup and the account can be recovered in the same way as with passwords, or passwordless-email. No CS-verified recovery needed.
I had to setup a Passkey recently and wanted to store it in 1Password and the experience was quite absurd.
I don't know who designed this or who thinks these are acceptable affordances, but it seem to be part of the same disingenuous push that's behind passkeys in general.
Passkeys are a great way for attackers to have a secondary login into your account (e.g. Outlook, Gmail, etc.)
I love passkeys as a tech enthusiast with a password manager that can hang on to them but I don’t love them as a confusing user experience for the average joe.
I also don’t love how many websites and apps use them in stupid ways like using them alongside other 2FA or login methods when the passkey alone should be sufficient.
You’re the first person in these comments to mention 2FA with passkeys.
My gripe with passkeys is they are almost always implemented without a second factor.
You’ve mentioned the rare case of 2FA with a passkey as being a bad thing, but in my opinion those few cases are actually doing it RIGHT.
With passwords and 2FA, if someone manages to copy your primary authenticator (password) they will still be locked out because they don’t have your secondary authenticator. This protects you against malware that steals your password database.
But the way most companies implement passkeys (single auth), if someone steals your passkey database they can use it immediately. For all of the true measurable benefits that passkeys bring (not memorizable, higher entropy, automatic storage and use in a database) they are almost always used in a way that has this huge drawback: no 2FA.
This is not an issue with passkeys directly, it’s an issue with how services implement passkeys.
That's why I just implanted my NFC passkeys. I've got one in my left hand and one in my right forearm. If I lose access to them, I have other, much larger problems.
The author talks about the problem with using hardware keys, but they neglect to mention that many websites and apps simply do not allow the use of hardware keys! They will insist you use Apple or Google syncable keys. So after you have spent the money to buy 2 or 3 hardware keys, you find that they are not accepted.
Personally I love passkeys and think it’s not deployed enough. It works great (for me anyways!) and it is SO MUCH better than “login with email” that is everywhere now.
I went in expecting yet another screed about how passkeys were not issued by RMS in a FOSS encyclical, and therefore not only were they insecure, but they were also a morally bankrupt abomination. I was pleasantly surprised to read an actual thoughtful critique, albeit one I largely disagree with.
The author's assertion that the greatest risk to an individual is account lockout versus phishing or password harvesting is just not grounded in reality. I get phishing emails and SMSs daily. The criminal ecosystem running these campaigns is extremely active already and set to become even more so with LLMs. These campaigns are by far the biggest threat to normies.
Whereas account lockout happens most often with multiple failed password entries, which passkeys completely eliminate. I just don't know where this risk evaluation comes from.
The author also points out that even with passkeys, if you're able to also log in with e.g. security questions, you still have a much weaker security footprint for that account. This is true, but it's also true of a TOTP second factor. So I'm not sure what the criticism is here.
The exportability argument is a real weakness and something I'd like to see addressed. Passkeys don't have an equivalent for backup TOTP codes that you can just write down somewhere or trivially store yourself. But it probably wasn't in v1 because the people who designed passkeys figured that websites would not go all in on them immediately and would preserve other authentication methods, which is exactly what's happened.
Every time passkeys are brought up on HN it’s nothing but complaining and/or refusing to learn the basics about something new, but I’ve been switching to them on every site I can for months with literally no problems.
1Password everywhere, on iOS, Mac, and Windows. I’ve run into none of the issues elsewhere in the comments. Everything just works, including in-app logins.
Maybe your other password managers are just bad at implementing the right browser/OS hooks?
Passkeys work great with Bitwarden too. With it being set up on all of my devices I actually often prefer the passkey experience. Too many people depend on OS password managers or even the ones built into their browsers.
From TFA: "Both Apple and Google want your identity anchored to their operating systems. The “happy path” on their devices is to use their synced passkey management tied to your Apple or Google account. If their automated systems decide one day to ban your account, you irreversibly lose access to all your passkeys used across all third-party accounts too."
This is, in my opinion, the most serious problem with passkeys. I'd like to adopt them, but this is a blocker.
If this is your only blocker you could still use passkeys with a different provider, like KeepassXC?
Related: the UX is currently terrible. Every time I go to a website that has passkey flow, I'm presented with: - MacOS native UI; which I cancel; then I see - Bitwarden UI; which I cancel; then I see - Chrome UI; which I cancel;
Like, seriously?
Passkeys lock you into a third-party provider ecosystem that you really should be trying hard to avoid getting locked into. They also add a quantum safety risk. Stay away.
Well I like them, as an option. I offer using passkeys and email interchangeably; if you lose one you can recover with the other. Passwords, SMS, TOTP are out for me.
Passkeys are too strong and may cause account loss.
Passkeys are too weak and can be bypassed by account recovery.
Just yesterday I was showing to a friend how I logged in my self-hosted forge with my own hardware key.
0 intermediary yet proper and convenient authentication. If that friend ate the key (which he didn't) I'd just use my backup key, a cheaper non biometric one.
I think it's not more popular because people don't care enough about security to buy actual keys, rely instead of 3rd parties that they don't actually trust, e.g. Microsoft, Google, etc then... complain it's not good enough.
Username and password was a predictable flow. Passkeys are just a small component in the modern obstacle race of logging in. Every few months a new credential or ritual to access your own resources .
These are the four flaws with Passkeys I've found after implementing them on our website. I actually like them now. But, It made me discover why people dislike them. The vast majority of problems are _the way websites implement them_ and _the way password managers today_ work.
Website problems:
* First big problem: you try to kludge them as an "add-on" to a password or SMS "2fa". Just rip the band aide off and let people go 100% passkey by default. It's actually really easy for users. We do a push at the end of their onboarding flow and have a 95% conversion. Users love it and its seamless.
* Don't make people enter a username. Just have a "login with passkey" button first, and thats it. If the HIPPO in your organizations insists a username-password still be available, make the user navigate to a secondary page first to do so. Make the passkey the first-class citizen.
Password Manager problems:
* Google, Apple, Microsoft are trying to lock people in to proprietary password managers. Microsoft's password manager, plus their "microsoft account" experience is a steaming pile of shit. The key here would be portability. An export format exists for the public key (thats how enrollment works): It's a but of digits in ANSI X9.62 format. Not hard. The private key would be an unbelievably simple export.
Protocol problems, and I'm happy to be wrong here:
* The client does not sign the server issued nonce (aka the 'challenge') during the authentication flow. This is kinda weird IMHO. Technically, yes it is secure, but it relies solely on the TLS channel heuristics. It'd be much better to have the client prove the signature on enrollment as layered security.
To address the author fears on attestation: This is a real threat to users... imagine a website "only accepting passkeys from OUR password manager". Luckily, Apple has done us all a favor and outright killed that part of the protocol by refusing to send this required fields there, protecting all users.
Overall, you should use them. We need one tiny change to the protocol and better password managers.
I don't know much about passkeys, I have never implemented them. I once tried to find out more about them but all I could see is "you're going to regret using this one day".
Passkeys suck because only the wealthiest 5% of the world is all-in on one ecosystem (such as Apple) while the remaining 95% uses a Windows laptop, an Android phone and (for the top 5-35%ish) maybe an iPad. All of these OSes push hard to get you to store your passkeys with THEM so it ends up a shitshow with everything scattered everywhere.
And why do the OSes push for this so hard? Because the goal of the execs is lock-in and control. And their lackeys here on HN who implement this stuff and their families are the 1% who are all-in on one ecosystem so they arrogantly believe "this all works great and the masses are just too stupid to get it".
They're a solution to a problem that were created by people who are completely out of touch with normal users and how they use computers.
Sure they work fine on a technical level, but they're frustrating and confusing for the vast majority of people I know.
Depends. They make it pretty easy for people who don't think about the consequences of things.
I worry I am going to get locked out of my Google account, muggles don't. Doesn't stop them from getting locked out.
Apple has a vision where you have an iPhone and a mac at home and a mac at work and a vision pro and an Apple TV and all of that and your passcodes "just work". Doesn't work for the "rest of us", like we're already used to AirPods punishing us for using Windows.
I just had a very annoying interaction with the tailscale Android app:
It wanted me to log in for some reason even though it had worked fine for months. Login uses my Google log in.
When I try that, Google asks me for a hardware key to complete the login, even though it's my phone and I'm already logged in.
Eventually I figured out that if you select "log in using another device" and then click cancel when it brings up the qr code, you can select a push notification on "another device", which actually pops up on the same device. Do that once and it fails. Do it a second time and it succeeds.
All to use the tailscale app on my own phone.
I hate them, mostly because I am forced to use them.
They provide crappy usability, they're expensive, they're easy to lose, you can't use the physical keys when doing remote desktop access.
My job requires me to use them. I use only for the job and nothing else. For sites requiring 2FA, I use TOTP (time-based one time passwords) from KeePassXC.
I take passkeys over the unbearable cargo cult that follows LLM companies, namely companies' newly found obsession to "sign in via email".
Ideally optionally followed by a 2FA (naturally, via text, delivered straight to my Mac, even further diluting the questionable security of the whole exercise) and naturally, to be repeated every 2 days or so, since "stay logged in" is the biggest lie after "I've read and accepted the ToS".
Your phone (which is probably what, 80% of relevant traffic these days?) likely has a perfectly fine password manager built in. This "sign in via email" trend must be every scammer and phishers biggest dream come true...
Almost everything has supported email-based password reset since 90's for all the problems it entails.
I am looking at a new project that uses magic links sent by texts. I have been there and done that with authentication systems and that's good enough for a low stakes ludic activity.
The same is true for passwords with a password manager.
Also not really a problem with randomly generated site-specific passwords in a password manager.
Really all the browser vendors had to do was add an API to make automatically generate a password that is then stored in the user's password manager the low friction option.
If you're doing that you might as well use public/private keys. The issues with passkeys are around user experience and education about how they are stored, and a lack of good backup options like enrolling a not-present device as opposed to relying on syncing them through an external service.
The difference is that no password manager I used ever tried to hide my passwords from me.
For me passkeys work wonderfully synced in Bitwarden on Windows, Linux, and Android. I have no idea what this article trying to say, except some negative opinion that should IMO be ignored.
They're great when you don't own a phone - when you can't use random 2FA "Apps".
As many USB-security keys can be used passkeys.
You don't need a phone to do 2FA :
https://github.com/pcarrier/gauth
Very odd. I use passkeys extensively with BitWarden and I love it to the point where it's my preferred way of securing things at this point.
The fact that the website presents the question to BitWarden in a structured way (what website, what username) means that I never fight with selecting the right account to get the password for (because I commonly have multiple accounts for a single site) and it generally makes the login flow much smoother.
Environment is MacOS with Brave/Firefox + iOS.
<sarcasm>On the plus side, this way passkeys can also be tied to age/identity verification.</sarcasm>
The future of authentication is....CertFP. Basically the same as passkeys, but a based on certificates that you can backup somewhere.
If the browser supports them and stores them securely you're safe as houses even in a breach.
The article asserts with little proof that lockout risk is a big problem. But consumer sites themselves basically 100% of the time have a recovery path that amounts to a SMS code or emailed code.
The only part that is very persuasive is the part about storing your passkeys with Google or Apple integrations, and what happens if they ban your account. But the same argument would apply if you’re only storing your passwords in a Google or Apple password manager.
I use passkeys and I always store them in a password manager I control - but usually I also store another one in the OS on Windows, Apple, and Google. Best of all worlds. Also, I appreciate that idiots aren’t forcing me to “change my passkeys” every 90 months like they STILL do with passwords!
Passkeys are mostly useless because of that.
Their security is nearly universally undermined by reset mechanisms.
There are virtually no sites where passkeys cannot be bypassed.
am i the only one on HN who really likes passkeys?
so much better than fumbling around with a password managers
I respectfully disagree with the author!
Passkeys have been a massive quality-of-life improvement. Yes, there's the minimal risk of lockout if you lose access to the passkey (though almost every site I've used that implements pk's lays it on top of their traditional user/pass auth flow), but generally speaking most people use iCloud or their Google account to store their passkeys, and because those sync everywhere, this isn't a real risk.
I love not needing to deal with 1Password's autofill being flakey and having to CMD-C/CMD-V passwords/passphrases/OTPs on these sites.
I like Yubikeys as well but they are super inconvenient by comparison when dealing with multiple devices. Setting them up is also very user-unfriendly in general; doubly so compared to passkeys.
Now, what I'd REALLY F'IN LOVE to see go away is the passwordless/magic link auth flow wherein you authenticate by clicking a magic link that gets sent to your email or text message inbox.
"Emails are super easy to hack and we're still not sure whether text messages are safe to send on US carriers, so let's have everyone click on a link sent by email or text so that they don't have to deal with those pesky passwords that iOS or Android will automatically suggest for them." Like, what?
Exactly, if you lose your passkey you just sign in with your password like you did previously. I'm yet to find an app/website that has passkeys only and no passwords.
Seems like a total non-issue to me.
Great writing and points Ethan!
Passkeys match a very unique situation where I don't want to store anyone's email address, don't want them to type anything, generally want to store as little information as possible. Also don't want it to be easy for people to share/steal passwords/accounts, and prefer storing on the local device.
Windows still required entering a local PIN, sometimes 2-3 times. I think the account recovery didn't scale, though haven't really tested/explored with any real users :)
I've not yet encountered a site which has even suggested I use something like a passkey. Under the assumption that you're doing the Right Thing, and avoid using Apple, Alphabet and Microsoft's services - this is a non-issue. In fact, even if you use their non-login-requiring services (e.g. YouTube, Bing, Google search) - again no passkeys in your life.