To me, literally writing code by hand instead of letting AI do it feels like digging a foundation pit with a shovel instead of letting an excavator do it. Sure it can be done but much slower and the benefits are questionable. But curious if you have reasons to believe otherwise?
If your work is analogous to digging a foundation pit or something like framing up homes in a development, that makes a lot of sense. But that's not the only kind of work many of us do, and analogies to things like finish carpentry, functional sculpture, or fine furniture are more applicable. Hand craft doesn't always make a difference, but there's plenty of places where it does.
Plus, for a lot of people with fluency and experience, it's simply more fun/natural and not meaningfully less productive.
It's not the same example, the excavator is driven by a human being, it's a tool (in coding world the same as using an high level programming language instead of writing bits into the computer memory).
The LLM *may* be used as a mere tool, that is something you ask question time to time, but shouldn't be the thing that makes the work that you should do. Because if we arrive at this point (hopefully never) at that point the CEO of the tech companies may as well say, why we still need developers? Let's fire all of them.
Fortunately they did not, because there is STILL VALUE in writing code by hand, understanding what it happens, what the code will do, etc. I hope this will not be a lost skill, or well, if it does good for me, because the same as nowadays things being able to repair electronic devices makes a ton of money (I've considered opening a repair shop) because there is no one still doing it, will do programmers that well, know how to program.
Every excavator crew I've seen has a shovel on the truck. They sometimes pull it out of the truck and use it. Most of the time though you can get the excavator there and get the job done faster than any hand work.
The most common use for a shovel seems to be "this is as close as I dare get to the wire we know is around here - scrape the dirt away until you find it and then I'll dig the rest out."
Genuine question: do you feel this disparity despite being diligent and checking the LLM's output, or is that not factored in?
It's also been my experience that generating an entire app/portion of code can be much easier by typing out a relatively concise prompt, but this only applies if it's the kind of code I'm
1) free from having to verify afterwards,
2) not having to fight with the LLM to get right, or
3) is coming from someone else in the form of a PR that may/may not have been checked by them first.
Having to deal with these cases has sometimes been the equivalent of using a spoon to dig a foundation, at least in my experience.
I feel like I have gone from 100% hand written code -> 0% hand written -> 50% and climbing.
I think there are things LLMs are really good at coding up and experimenting with but I think there's still a need to understand the btoader context of your software so you need to dive in at some point.
It's very important to understand what's happening, sure. Blindly shipping AI-produced code without understanding is just irresponsible. But how does writing code helps with that? Reading helps a lot, but writing just slows things down in my experience so far.
I love how the list is unironically filled with links to peoples bluesky's. X is a very AI-forward platform with people using it to build the future; Bluesky is presumably filled with old foggies who think 2k lines of code a sprint is impressive.
The language here means that signers are affirming that they continue to write at least some code by hand, not that they never use AI tools for coding. I'm not sure that's enough virtue to deserve its own signal.
edit to add: the irony of the grammatical error in this presumably hand-written sentence inside the "Who's behind this?" link:
Jared’s web studio Whitefusion is currently partnering with quality businesses & organizations which believe in staying away from costly hype cycles and the value of the human touch.
There is a niche market for hand-knit sweaters, and they do have some fervent followers, but most of us prefer the price and convenience of machine-made clothes. Just like most of us do not write assembly by hand any more, most of the time.
Gross how many commenters are swarming to take pride in their ignorance and generation of deficient, bug-ridden code. Like actual cockroaches, there's 15 one-line comments to this effect in 10 minutes. LLMs are obviously immensely useful for certain types of tasks and prototyping but you have to be seriously incompetent if they're faster and better than you are for writing production-worthy code in any area where you have the slightest bit of expertise.
I began programming as means to express myself artistically, but over time, it became more of a way to value myself instead. AI is helping me get back to the former, and with that I have peace.
It's wild to watch speciation in real time. (Quick, interpret that according to your chosen side.) I do not know who will "win", but the real-time divergence between the commentary here and, say, other "programmer news" sites is incredible to live through. This reminds me of mid-2020 days of COVID and the level of, eh, confidence going around about masks or lockdowns or vaccines.
I've never written code by hand, I've always used a text editor on my laptop. I still design and develop software with my brain, and in conversation and collaboration with my team and stakeholders --- and these days frequently an LLM. Sometimes (often) I make edits by hand, but it has reached a point where generating code by prompt is so much faster that it allows me to allocate more time and brainpower to the actual bottlenecks.
I'm sure a lot of the signatories on this list feel the same.
Yea every PR submitted before LLMs was top tier work. Humans are born with an innate instinct to code and build complex software. It's the great equalizer. There are not outliers in coding. It is with great pleasure we "LGTM" and rubber stamp contributions. Nothing ever went wrong until LLMs ruined it for everyone.
Can you still use Claude/ChatGPT as a "better google" or would that not count as hand coding anymore? I guess if you type it out instead of copy and pasting it. That's not much different than the old way of using Stack Overflow but with the ability to ask more specific questions.
if you write a prompt, and see the code and edit it by writing another prompt, you the human wrote that code. you may not have typed the keyboard for each character in the code. but the llm did not write it all for you. this is the same as a pair programmer, 2 authors
The amount of Mastodon icons on that page sadly also confirm my feeling that Mastodon in general is a very "Anti AI" bubble and it became a lot less fun to hang out there if you are even slightly interested in AI or working with it. Not even talking about being some AI hyper, just someone who sees benefits in some fields and my daily work life.
Do you think, code by hand worth it and why ?
To me, literally writing code by hand instead of letting AI do it feels like digging a foundation pit with a shovel instead of letting an excavator do it. Sure it can be done but much slower and the benefits are questionable. But curious if you have reasons to believe otherwise?
If your work is analogous to digging a foundation pit or something like framing up homes in a development, that makes a lot of sense. But that's not the only kind of work many of us do, and analogies to things like finish carpentry, functional sculpture, or fine furniture are more applicable. Hand craft doesn't always make a difference, but there's plenty of places where it does.
Plus, for a lot of people with fluency and experience, it's simply more fun/natural and not meaningfully less productive.
It's not the same example, the excavator is driven by a human being, it's a tool (in coding world the same as using an high level programming language instead of writing bits into the computer memory).
The LLM *may* be used as a mere tool, that is something you ask question time to time, but shouldn't be the thing that makes the work that you should do. Because if we arrive at this point (hopefully never) at that point the CEO of the tech companies may as well say, why we still need developers? Let's fire all of them.
Fortunately they did not, because there is STILL VALUE in writing code by hand, understanding what it happens, what the code will do, etc. I hope this will not be a lost skill, or well, if it does good for me, because the same as nowadays things being able to repair electronic devices makes a ton of money (I've considered opening a repair shop) because there is no one still doing it, will do programmers that well, know how to program.
Every excavator crew I've seen has a shovel on the truck. They sometimes pull it out of the truck and use it. Most of the time though you can get the excavator there and get the job done faster than any hand work.
The most common use for a shovel seems to be "this is as close as I dare get to the wire we know is around here - scrape the dirt away until you find it and then I'll dig the rest out."
Genuine question: do you feel this disparity despite being diligent and checking the LLM's output, or is that not factored in?
It's also been my experience that generating an entire app/portion of code can be much easier by typing out a relatively concise prompt, but this only applies if it's the kind of code I'm
1) free from having to verify afterwards,
2) not having to fight with the LLM to get right, or
3) is coming from someone else in the form of a PR that may/may not have been checked by them first.
Having to deal with these cases has sometimes been the equivalent of using a spoon to dig a foundation, at least in my experience.
I admire the will power of the people able to do this.
There's just no way I could go back to writing code by hand with the temptation of AI right there in front of me.
I feel like I have gone from 100% hand written code -> 0% hand written -> 50% and climbing.
I think there are things LLMs are really good at coding up and experimenting with but I think there's still a need to understand the btoader context of your software so you need to dive in at some point.
It's very important to understand what's happening, sure. Blindly shipping AI-produced code without understanding is just irresponsible. But how does writing code helps with that? Reading helps a lot, but writing just slows things down in my experience so far.
You can't learn what good code is by reading it, you have to write code to learn what good code looks like
True, but having written enough (from many years of doing it full time), the returns from writing more are diminishing.
But yes I agree that as part of learning effort it's important to write, too.
I compare it to math, you can't learn it by reading it you need exercises. Same thing, reading is not sufficient. Just my experience.
Yeah if it's done as part of learning effort, then I def agree.
Its written like it's making a praiseworthy point, but mostly comes across as luddites.
Luddites were making a praiseworthy point.
You use the word luddites as a pejorative, but don’t substantiate why that is the case. What’s the actual issue?
From the OED. The predominant use of "Luddite" has been disparaging for a long time.
You can debate whether it should be or not, but it's not reasonable to criticize conventional use.
I love how the list is unironically filled with links to peoples bluesky's. X is a very AI-forward platform with people using it to build the future; Bluesky is presumably filled with old foggies who think 2k lines of code a sprint is impressive.
Oh, we're back to using lines of code as a productivity measure?
"We Weave Fabric by Hand" - Weaver, England, 1812
We Chop Trees by Hand
The language here means that signers are affirming that they continue to write at least some code by hand, not that they never use AI tools for coding. I'm not sure that's enough virtue to deserve its own signal.
edit to add: the irony of the grammatical error in this presumably hand-written sentence inside the "Who's behind this?" link:
Comes across as this "I'm special", and kinda cringe...
There is a niche market for hand-knit sweaters, and they do have some fervent followers, but most of us prefer the price and convenience of machine-made clothes. Just like most of us do not write assembly by hand any more, most of the time.
Organic artisanal code?
Bruh of course this is coming out of Portland. That'll be the last city writing code by hand.
Gross how many commenters are swarming to take pride in their ignorance and generation of deficient, bug-ridden code. Like actual cockroaches, there's 15 one-line comments to this effect in 10 minutes. LLMs are obviously immensely useful for certain types of tasks and prototyping but you have to be seriously incompetent if they're faster and better than you are for writing production-worthy code in any area where you have the slightest bit of expertise.
I began programming as means to express myself artistically, but over time, it became more of a way to value myself instead. AI is helping me get back to the former, and with that I have peace.
I like this sentiment. It's the same I share as well.
It's wild to watch speciation in real time. (Quick, interpret that according to your chosen side.) I do not know who will "win", but the real-time divergence between the commentary here and, say, other "programmer news" sites is incredible to live through. This reminds me of mid-2020 days of COVID and the level of, eh, confidence going around about masks or lockdowns or vaccines.
njoy mhy hnnd crfhted proze
Oh sweet, free backlinks. Thanks for the SEO.
I've never written code by hand, I've always used a text editor on my laptop. I still design and develop software with my brain, and in conversation and collaboration with my team and stakeholders --- and these days frequently an LLM. Sometimes (often) I make edits by hand, but it has reached a point where generating code by prompt is so much faster that it allows me to allocate more time and brainpower to the actual bottlenecks.
I'm sure a lot of the signatories on this list feel the same.
Purely handmade code will be the symbol of quality.
Yea every PR submitted before LLMs was top tier work. Humans are born with an innate instinct to code and build complex software. It's the great equalizer. There are not outliers in coding. It is with great pleasure we "LGTM" and rubber stamp contributions. Nothing ever went wrong until LLMs ruined it for everyone.
/s
Good for you. Some people paint on canvases, too.
Can you still use Claude/ChatGPT as a "better google" or would that not count as hand coding anymore? I guess if you type it out instead of copy and pasting it. That's not much different than the old way of using Stack Overflow but with the ability to ask more specific questions.
if you write a prompt, and see the code and edit it by writing another prompt, you the human wrote that code. you may not have typed the keyboard for each character in the code. but the llm did not write it all for you. this is the same as a pair programmer, 2 authors
This is a list of people who have downgraded themselves from professional to hobbyist
This has the energy of a collective of archers proudly announcing that they still fire arrows in the age of gunpowder.
To each their own, though.
Perhaps more like snipers saying they don't need full-auto?
The amount of Mastodon icons on that page sadly also confirm my feeling that Mastodon in general is a very "Anti AI" bubble and it became a lot less fun to hang out there if you are even slightly interested in AI or working with it. Not even talking about being some AI hyper, just someone who sees benefits in some fields and my daily work life.
"We will not get off the saddle and refuse to buy a car!"
I wonder if by signing they're saying they write zero code with AI. Because huge spectrum making the statement almost meaningless.