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I'm not exactly following through with the claim, can someone explain how the built-in classification would not necessitate more tokens used, or be much different from turning on reasoning? Not that I don't see the difference, I just doing see how OpenAI would do it well.
AFAIK Jev is nothing special technically so it's easy to embed it as an another tool for the LLM? For many batch tasks it can still be quite a token saver I think.
Or they can even offer it as a standalone API if deemed worth it.
Jev seems to have three benefits:
1) It's very cheap and fast - you provide one input and many potential classifications, and the compute to ingest the input is shared.
2) It generates structured output natively - guaranteed to be correct
3) It's output probabilities are calibrated to actually mean something
OpenAI, or anyone else, could certainly replicate it - there are already articles guessing how Jev achieves its "parallel" classifications, but it seems the AI companies need to decide are they in the business of providing intelligence/tokens, or are they in the application business trying to compete with all their customers (not that Jev uses OpenAI).
(3) seems to be the hard one, you have to have training data with accurate probabilities, maybe, but perhaps not since people are primed to trust
Just to clarify:
It's not guaranteed to be correct: it's guaranteed to be _formatted in a particular way_. You can get the same thing with grammars on any LLM.
Jev and Jev-like models have other advantages, but I feel like people forget grammars exist for LLMs.
Grammars do risk pushing models off distribution in a way that impacts their output quality in a way Jev allegedly does not suffer from. Additionally, Jev's ability to answer questions independently is also exciting. Using an LLM to answer multiple questions in one generation has the property of earlier answers influencing later ones. TBD how many of TypeSafe's claims stand up, but my testing so far is promising. I hope they author some papers on their methods as well, but that might destroy their moat.
[delayed]
I think the idea is that the latent thinking space in the LLM will be roughly the same for similar quality results - so the majority of executing well could be stripping back and fine tuning an existing LLM.
The claim of how they are doing it is likely wrong....
If Typesafe/Jev has 2-3 years of financial runway, this problem might solve itself.
The more likely scenario is either OpenAI or Anthropic just go pay some highly inflated price to buy Jev. Mainly just for its people and the PR, not tech.
Which is likely what all the VC, hype machine, and overinflated claims are really about anyways.
The tech etc is easily replicated. The hype / name, not.
I seem to remember reading that the Jev-founder-guy is ex-OpenAI anyways. So that's how these things often roll.
{ "answer": "might", "probabilities": { "might": 0.99, "won't": 0.01 }, "confidence": 0.99 }
If OpenAI releases something similar to what Jev does, then that would be like admitting defeat. Their whole spin is AGI and world ending danger. Why would somebody with an AGI at home make something like Jev which is intended to be a part of some SW the AGI is going to replace anyway.
ASI isn't here yet. It could benefit people in the interim and help make the ASI.
Why release an image model, or a video model, or custom agents if AGI will just make them all obsolete?
Why build codex if AGI will replace SWEs?
Why build excel integrations if AGI will replace spreadsheets?
the point of this article perplexes me. the implication is we should all just take our Quietus. you decide.
I would assume that they would fold this type of classification into their responses API next to existing ancillary tooling that they already ship. I think OpenAI positions themselves as being wholly focused on AGI - but I think their business model leans towards lock-in via superior tooling (Codex, ChatGPT, etc.). This feels like an easy win for them without muddying the larger vision.
The people that buy into "AGI is here" and the people that understand what Jev is and how useful it would be to hook it up to an LLM are two separate circles, so there's no "defeat" being admitted.
It's just another tool. Luna exists for a reason: it's the right tool for the job. If they release AGI and it costs $1 and 5 seconds to decide "is the customer asking for a refund", then that's a terrible use case for AGI if another tool can do it with 95% accuracy for $0.002 and 50ms.
Is it? If AGI is here then by the time I test and deploy that the AGI will be most likely cheaper and smarter because it improved itself (for example by implementing it's own Jev for stupid prompts like this), so why invest into a more complex solutions?
Not sure what's more complex about one REST API call versus another REST API call...
Because AGI will also handle whatever is happening after your "is the customer asking for a refund?" question. Replacing whoever is doing that refund.
I don’t think that was a great example since there’s only so many refunds a customer is going to ask for. And it’s saving time that otherwise maybe would have to go through a human. The rate is low enough that a more expensive model makes more sense.
Though for tasks where you are trying to search through billions of documents, social media posts, etc. and extract certain information, where each individual post is of low value and only the data in aggregate is valuable, then that’s where you’d want something cheaper and faster.
Such as if you want to look at all posts on X in the last few months and find how many have a negative or positive sentiment about the economy (or are unrelated).
Of course you could use a special-purpose model for this, but the whole point of something like Jev is to ask whatever questions you want without having to train something new.
I didn’t realise they were competing. If anything Jev seems complimentary to LLMs.
A lot of business automation doesn't need AGI, doesn't want to pay for AGI if they don't have to, and would be better off using a classifier than something increasingly unreliable with a mind of it's own.
There are many automation pipelines that use LLMs because there was no choice, but the multi-way classification that Jev provides is exactly what they need, and is going to be way faster and cheaper, as well as having the benefit of calibrated probabilities and structured output that can be relied on.
Personally, I don't really care what OpenAI does here. What's going to be far more exciting is when DeepSeek, Qwen, or GLM start integrating classifiers into their open models.
Exactly, the future is open models. Which is also the reason why those overvalued companies such as OpenAI will lead to a market crash as soon as investors realize that.
I'm not sure it makes as much sense to use the same bigger models for the things Jev does. Part of what makes Jev appealing is the cost/speed. I can definitely see them putting out S1 spins of their smaller models.
I'm confused. Why OpenAI and not Anthropic? I don't see anything here that is specific to OpenAI.
It's not just OpenAI. It can be any frontier-level lab that has more funding than Jev.
I'm looking forward to next week when we never have to hear about Jev again.
this one feels closer to the claw cycle
Why is everybody so obsessed with it? There are 2 Jev posts on the front page even now, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
With all the excitement around Jev, I suspect we'll see hundreds of options, it doesn't sound like Jev is that hard to replicate, given all the 3rd parties who are getting pretty damn close, or even better, results within a week.
vLLM has a PR very close to merging: https://github.com/vllm-project/vllm/pull/57250
Kev is an open Jev: https://github.com/jaredpalmer/kev
maybe open source even eats Jevs lunch first
see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49800574
There is one benefit that Jev has, that it is not OpenAI and thus it's probably less likely to steal your own work.
For now. Any company that grows to OpenAI/Anthropic's size and gets VC money is ought to become greedy.
This is a tired argument that needs actual evidence to go beyond the level of a conspiracy theory.
Not steal, but keep it indefinitely, per the JEV TOS
I find it unlikely. OpenAI is all in training models with reasoning with RL, and Jev-like models are the total opposite. They are made to not reason at all to be fast. If you want to add reasoning on top, you might as well use a conventional LLM because you lose the price and speed benefits when you output auto-regressive tokens. I don't think OpenAI will even bother with this.
Not proof that this is the case with Jev though. It might use non causal text encoder for the state, which could make sense given that its very good for its price.
I don't see it fundamentally any different than knowing when to use a tool. Is this tool like RAG an important enough corner case to train for it? I dunno.
LLMs already shell out and write code to solve certain problems. This is just a special case of that.
I just had Claude and Jev combine forces last night. I've built a few personal browser extensions in the past and thought it would be fun to copy an experiment I saw on twitter where Jev classifies comments/posts etc as slop or not.
Fed Claude an api key from typesafe and a link to documentation, and within about 10 minutes I had a view of HN that was populated with a little ranking as to sloppiness of each comment.
When your mind has been wired a bit to LLM latency, it feels extremely fast, and for such a subjective rating I think it did a good job.
Feels like it sits in a space between traditional ML classification and the frontier models. I can't think of a 'real' production use case for it in my sphere of influence, but certainly some will. And of course there will be five Jev competitors by the end of the year.
I love this!!