There are animals that don't "age"[1] so of course it's programmed. There's a balance between how often you want to recombine genetics and how long you want to be able to remember. It seems like a better system would have humans decline differently (i.e. no dementia) but having people grow old is almost certainly beneficial to the species.
[1] Their risk of death does not increase after reaching adulthood. I.e. every year after adulthood has the same risk of unexpected death. Humans and other animals that age have their risks of death climb in "old" age.
That you can go 300km/h in an F1 car, doesn't mean you can go that fast on a bicycle, even though they're both in the genus "wheel-based vehicles for human transport". The jellyfish is a rather different animal. Trees can grow very old, but there's a reason why you didn't use those as an example: too far from human biology. That jellyfish may be at a similar distance.
I've always thought eternal life would steal from the next generation if resources are scarce. If your reaction times, intelligence, etc are always good, and your experience and memories get better, it just seems like you'd out compete your kids and younger cohorts. All well and good but basically stops genetic turnover that got us to this point.
OTOH, you'd accumulate uncurable disease, injuries, etc as well. Maybe you become a disease resevoir inside your own growing family. Or you pass on as-yet-unknown genetic anomalies that are unhelpful, and you do so forever.
Granted that's a modern take, and in particular a modern rpg-like take. Regardless though getting rid of oldies seems like a reasonable way to move a species forward if natural selection is driving "forward".
OTOH a vast amount of mayhem and madness arises just from each generation's memory being wiped clean. Within three or four generations the earth lacks any sense of what risks came before it, and repeats the same stupid stuff.
If we were managed by the interwar generation, little of what's happening today would be happening today.
Lack of experience is critical for risk taking. Even great successes like Jensen Huang have said that if they knew how hard it was going to be, he wouldn't choose his path again.
Memory blocks you from experimentation as much as it protects you from making recurrent mistakes. A species or civilization with too much memory will eventually wither away towards complete inaction and decay.
OTOH same is true for wiping clean habits, prejudices and deeply held wrong beliefs. It's said that science advances one funeral at a time.
If we were managed by the colonial generation, slavery and segregation would still be the norm, only rich white men would be able to vote and a king would still have the final say.
the earth lacks any sense of what risks came before it
The earth is a bad term here, how about human civilization?
Your DNA, epigenetics, and a ton of other subconscious intelligent processes are well aware of the risks and contain a massive set of tools to overcome them.
The problem? Many of these tools have to run from zero in an egg to work in the changing environment.
If your reaction times, intelligence, etc are always good, and your experience and memories get better, it just seems like you'd out compete your kids and younger cohorts.
On the other hand, always being around as a sort of Protector to protect your kids seems like it would generally be good for your genes. (Of course, you'd have to fight off other Protectors who are doing the same...)
This is where being a real parent vs a theoretical one makes a huge difference to your take. After seeing how much damage to their kids people adapted _their_ childhood do, I've started to think that humans should die around 40 with reproduction age being between 10 to 20 - like most other great apes. It's only in increadibly stable environments that waiting for as long as we do for children that it makes sence.
How this number is going to change in the future with exponential growth in the environment is left as an exercise to the reader.
getting rid of oldies seems like a reasonable way to move a species forward
This is the real feature of aging, death, and dying. Progress is measured in funerals, not years. If everyone lived forever, nothing would ever change.
Maintaining order and fighting entropy is hard, but also planned obsolescence is a good thing for systemic resilience.
You have to regularly clear out the old for at least two reasons...
a) keep the process of creating new things well exercised. "We can't build that anymore. We don't know how." A factory that builds things that last too long eventually goes out of business.
b) prevent old things from monopolizing resources due to more time to compound interest. Otherwise, you end up with Saturn devouring his son.
when he became acutely aware that his grandparents and parents were not going to live forever…Cao turned to science. Finding a way to slow aging became his lifelong goal
Nothing is supposed to persist forever it doesn’t even make sense to try
I wonder what Cao would've done once he learned that his great-grandparents are already gone. Perhaps at that point nothing less than time machine invention will do.
Reminds me of a thought I had about galaxies being instance runs while writing Github actions to build database binaries.
Each galaxy and any planets/life it contains are just artifacts of an "existence run." That's why life feels like a simulation so often (and human history repeats itself): we're inside of an organic (human word) "program" that's trying to perfect itself by running similar, but consistently tweaked "logic" over and over (a macro of sorts). Things like evolution are just an algorithm embedded in the system.
If the theory discussed in the article is correct, then aging is (in the scope of the above thought) just one program among several that we interpret as existence/life.
Aging could very well be a program to deal with the breakdown.
There are animals that don't "age"[1] so of course it's programmed. There's a balance between how often you want to recombine genetics and how long you want to be able to remember. It seems like a better system would have humans decline differently (i.e. no dementia) but having people grow old is almost certainly beneficial to the species.
[1] Their risk of death does not increase after reaching adulthood. I.e. every year after adulthood has the same risk of unexpected death. Humans and other animals that age have their risks of death climb in "old" age.
What are examples of non-aging animals?
The Immortal Jellyfish, and functionally the naked mole rat.
The lobster, though they die from being too large to molt.
That you can go 300km/h in an F1 car, doesn't mean you can go that fast on a bicycle, even though they're both in the genus "wheel-based vehicles for human transport". The jellyfish is a rather different animal. Trees can grow very old, but there's a reason why you didn't use those as an example: too far from human biology. That jellyfish may be at a similar distance.
The process of science is to determine what exactly these inferred limits actually are and how many can be overcome.
The animals are wildly simple however. It may well be that ageless is only possible before you develop a brain.
I've always thought eternal life would steal from the next generation if resources are scarce. If your reaction times, intelligence, etc are always good, and your experience and memories get better, it just seems like you'd out compete your kids and younger cohorts. All well and good but basically stops genetic turnover that got us to this point.
OTOH, you'd accumulate uncurable disease, injuries, etc as well. Maybe you become a disease resevoir inside your own growing family. Or you pass on as-yet-unknown genetic anomalies that are unhelpful, and you do so forever.
Granted that's a modern take, and in particular a modern rpg-like take. Regardless though getting rid of oldies seems like a reasonable way to move a species forward if natural selection is driving "forward".
OTOH a vast amount of mayhem and madness arises just from each generation's memory being wiped clean. Within three or four generations the earth lacks any sense of what risks came before it, and repeats the same stupid stuff.
If we were managed by the interwar generation, little of what's happening today would be happening today.
That goes both ways.
Lack of experience is critical for risk taking. Even great successes like Jensen Huang have said that if they knew how hard it was going to be, he wouldn't choose his path again.
Memory blocks you from experimentation as much as it protects you from making recurrent mistakes. A species or civilization with too much memory will eventually wither away towards complete inaction and decay.
Yep, it allows you to climb out of local maxima.
OTOH same is true for wiping clean habits, prejudices and deeply held wrong beliefs. It's said that science advances one funeral at a time.
If we were managed by the colonial generation, slavery and segregation would still be the norm, only rich white men would be able to vote and a king would still have the final say.
The earth is a bad term here, how about human civilization?
Your DNA, epigenetics, and a ton of other subconscious intelligent processes are well aware of the risks and contain a massive set of tools to overcome them.
The problem? Many of these tools have to run from zero in an egg to work in the changing environment.
Doubtful. They were the ones who created the world we live in today.
Sounds like an argument for pacing the frontier of geriatric medicine.
On the other hand, always being around as a sort of Protector to protect your kids seems like it would generally be good for your genes. (Of course, you'd have to fight off other Protectors who are doing the same...)
One's kids may disagree.
Imagine still having helicopter parents at 50 years old.
My granddad tells the story of the time he left his parents house and they called out "Make sure to turn your burners on".
He was in his 60s....
Once a parent, always a parent, I guess.
Finally mankind can return to it's intended 3-phase form of existence as described by Niven
Not if that protection ended up making your offspring weaker. Some adversity is necessary to develop resilience and self-sufficiency.
This is where being a real parent vs a theoretical one makes a huge difference to your take. After seeing how much damage to their kids people adapted _their_ childhood do, I've started to think that humans should die around 40 with reproduction age being between 10 to 20 - like most other great apes. It's only in increadibly stable environments that waiting for as long as we do for children that it makes sence.
How this number is going to change in the future with exponential growth in the environment is left as an exercise to the reader.
Right, but should your kids get your protection? You can protect them to adulthood now, even your grandkids.
But 1000 generations of unassailable, un-evolving, 40IQ lions doesn't get you to the galaxy.
Hey, maybe this is the fermi paradox.
This is the real feature of aging, death, and dying. Progress is measured in funerals, not years. If everyone lived forever, nothing would ever change.
This is almost the stated intention of longevists.
It's probably a bit of both.
Maintaining order and fighting entropy is hard, but also planned obsolescence is a good thing for systemic resilience.
You have to regularly clear out the old for at least two reasons...
a) keep the process of creating new things well exercised. "We can't build that anymore. We don't know how." A factory that builds things that last too long eventually goes out of business.
b) prevent old things from monopolizing resources due to more time to compound interest. Otherwise, you end up with Saturn devouring his son.
I never considered the compound interest angle. This helps me reason about my life; thanks!
[delayed]
Nothing is supposed to persist forever it doesn’t even make sense to try
I wonder what Cao would've done once he learned that his great-grandparents are already gone. Perhaps at that point nothing less than time machine invention will do.
"Supposed" by whom?
Not surprised. Some sort of optimization program to terminate the aged in order to reduce the maintenance issues for the next generation I suppose..
And the mandatory need for replacement keeps mixing the gene pool, occasionally producing improvements.
Any Larry Niven fans nodding along?
You could even say it's an "upgrade Pak."
In the end, can aging itself not be cured, and is the only option to prevent the program that causes it? I'm curious
Previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49413305
Reminds me of a thought I had about galaxies being instance runs while writing Github actions to build database binaries.
Each galaxy and any planets/life it contains are just artifacts of an "existence run." That's why life feels like a simulation so often (and human history repeats itself): we're inside of an organic (human word) "program" that's trying to perfect itself by running similar, but consistently tweaked "logic" over and over (a macro of sorts). Things like evolution are just an algorithm embedded in the system.
If the theory discussed in the article is correct, then aging is (in the scope of the above thought) just one program among several that we interpret as existence/life.
Just a daydream but fun to think about.