Thankyou!! I'm sure if you have experience in the medical space this sort of thing seems obvious, but to me (non-medical), the original phrasing was so confusing. Your explanation makes sense.
Now I am imagining a 501-C where school children are encouraged to read studies to mice. Children get better at reading technical papers, mice learn more about their options! Win Win!
As it turns out, no one lets you generate mutant human embryos with deficient creatine receptors, grow them up into adult humans, inject them with melanoma, euthanize them and harvest the tumor cell mass and bone marrow for analysis.
Please remember that this is a study not the ads and pop-sci articles usually posted here. That means it’s meant to elucidate at most some biological pathways and not to present an overall recommendation. Maybe creatine has strong anti-tumor activity through one pathway and strongly tumor-promoting impacts elsewhere.
Please… just read it as the isolated and interesting insight into biology that it is. It’s a fascinating in vitro result that shows a potentially important role for creatinine in a certain immune response.
Interesting, I wonder how that is related? Do you believe you are getting hearing loss because you are retaining more water, or because you are dehydrated from retaining more water elsewhere in the body with the same intake rate? Does this go away if you were taking creatine and drinking more water? Or does it come up if you simply drink more water?
I'm a vegan, and I'm surprised this is downvoted, because it's true. There are plenty of things that you need to be careful to not become deficient in on a vegan diet: protein (in appropriate amino acid balances), creatine, b12, the good Omega 3s (from algae preferably; flax is missing DHA entirely), calcium, iron, to name a few.
You're fine if you take daily algae oil, multivitamin, iron supplement, calcium, and creatine (without going overboard on any of it) and making sure to get lots of protein from balanced sources (eating a ton of soy is actually not a bad idea, because it's a balanced protein), but I wouldn't recommend somebody who doesn't want to have to worry about their nutrition to go vegan. Enough omnivores are already deficient in vitamins and minerals, and veganism only makes it harder.
Not vouching for creatine, but in general, humans get some vital nutrients from animal consumption. Vegans have to take some B-vitamins for best health due to what they don't get from meat. I assume creatine is the same.
Well, if vegetarians and those of the Vegan religion don't get enough creatine it is most likely related to them not partaking of an important source of the substance: meat.
Your body can synthesize creatine, so it's not essential, but meat is a source of exogenous creatine and eating it results in higher stored creatine levels, which is slightly good for muscle power endurance in the ~5-15 second effort range. Supplementing produces slightly higher relative improvements in creatine levels in vegetarians and vegans than it does in people who eat meat.
I get severe cramping from it (reproducible). All I can find are papers about this being a myth and some reddit threads about other people having this.
I get this unless I drink a lot of water. About 48 fl oz seems to be the right amount for 10g creatine. Sometimes this needs to be combined with a light snack, like a handful of nuts.
I get it too if I don't drink a lot more water. So did many people on my sports team.
Creatine binds to water (making less water available to your muscles) and allows your muscles to work harder (which makes them need more water). So if you're not drinking a lot more water when you're taking creatine, you will get cramps from either dehydration and/or muscle overuse.
But once you're past the loading phase for creatine and getting sufficient hydration, it's supposed to lessen cramps because the water bound to creatine also becomes available for use again as the creatine is used by the body.
My understanding is it's a bit of a bind and release process that moves the water from outside of the muscle cell to inside of it until the cell is saturated or the creatine is consumed.
So the amount of creatine changes the rate as which water is loaded into the cell, but the total amount of water needed is calculated based on your muscle mass. The figures I've seen is 2L extra water (spread evenly, not all at once) for a normally recommended 5g daily creatine intake during loading (which typically takes a month at 5g/day dosage).
Excessively large doses make your stomach and perhaps your kidneys unhappy and supplements being lightly regulated there may be purity issues where the risk is what else is in it.
worth noting that there’s evidence both ways… tumor cells may like it too:
- Loo et al. 2015 found color cancer cells can use it as fuel and blocking the creatine cut metastasis in mice [0]
- zhang et al 20921 found it promoting mouse colon and breast cancer models [1]
not an expert in any way, but i’m guessing it depends on cancer type and there doesn’t seem to be human data either way. as a cautious person w a lot of familial cancer, i cycled off after i looked into it.
I'd like to try a low dose GLP-1 for inflammation benefits but I'm not overweight (5'-9" 162 lbs) so I don't think I could buy it.
That said, a little appetite suppression would be nice. I spend too much of my day thinking about food and that's annoying... For the past couple of years (I'm 56) my cravings for food have skyrocketed and if I ate as often or as much as I want to, I'd pack on weight fast.
A few years ago I did start taking 300 mg of nicotinamide riboside daily and that has helped quite a bit with inflammation.
Near as I can parse it, as a very, very anti-woo person, is as follows:
In a healthy individual with a balanced diet and no deficiencies, there are essentially zero supplements that do anything whatsoever to a measurable degree. Essentially the entire supplement aisle at Whole Foods or whatever is completely woo and useless, and any advertisements are someone trying to make money from you, or some mindless viral craze with no evidence. The exception to this general rule is omega 3s (fish oil is great for this, algae oil is even better given potential heavy metals in fish), protein supplementation if you're weightlifting, and creatine. GLP-1s are a wonder drug that are great if you are not a healthy individual and wish to be.
I've also heard about it 'hardening' in the bloodstream and that you should really be taking it with K2 as well. This is anecdotal so someone please do more research than basing anything from this comment
And, if you drink a glass of carrot juice a day, you'll receive toxic levels of vitamin A!
~40% of people don't get enough vitamin D [1]. It's not useful to categorize it as some trend, based on people just not following general recommended dosing (with more precise dosing depending entirely on personal sun exposure and skin color).
edit: As an office worker, I take 10k IU per day when I'm entirely indoors (most of the time), but vary it based on sun exposure. I based this on recent studies, and have my doctors approval with an exactly center-of-the-nominal-range vitamin D serum level.
severe VDD was defined as serum 25(OH)D levels of <25 nmol/L, moderate deficiency as 25–50 nmol/L, insufficiency as 50–75 nmol/L, and sufficiency as >75 nmol/L.
These numbers seem high to me. The 75 nmol/L (30ng/L) is not really a reliable value. It was published in a research that raises many questions due to conflict of interests.
Hence the
~40% of people don't get enough vitamin D
becomes:
~40% of people in the USA don't get enough vitamin D according to Dr. Holick
Where I live the norm is 20 ng/L and if we apply that, then the shocking 40% becomes more reasonable 10-15%
My doctor added vitamin D test to his patients recurring blood work since the start of COVID, and found out just about all his patients was deficient or near it.
If you don't have a primarily fish based diet or spend hours under direct overhead sunlight every day without a shirt on, you're probably deficient as well.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, Vitamin D does not require hours in the sun:
Recommendations to Obtain Adequate Amount of Vitamin D.
Sun exposure to the face, arms, hands, and legs without sunscreen for 5 to 30 minutes at least twice a week or more between the hours of 10 am and 4 pm
Now that's for most people: if you live in Alaska then during the winter maybe you need a litle more or something ... but the point is most people just need a little sun, < 30 minutes twice a week.
Your own link shows that what is considered toxic levels are far higher than most people would expect. Vitamin D toxicity is not that easy to accidentally hit.
Overdose has been observed at 1,925 μg/d (77,000 IU per day). Acute overdose requires between 15,000 μg/d (600,000 IU per day) and 42,000 μg/d (1,680,000 IU per day) over several days to months.
Citation please? Creatine is one of the most studied modern supplements, and I have yet to see anything that says to you'd need to 'take breaks' from it...
I saw someone handing out samples of creatine at Costco the other day, spouting all sorts of stuff like it's a wonder drug.
It's definitely becoming mainstream.
I've taken it off and on for the past 15 years, the most noticeable effect is about 5lbs of weight gain. I do think it helps gym performance and the increased water retention mames for better muscle definition.
This is such a crazy substance. I'm 43 and I feel like I have more energy than I have ever had before. I started taking it during recovery from a bad ankle fracture since it helps building muscle mass. Once the ankle was better I took up CrossFit, and kept on taking creatine because why not, it helps replenish ATP so I will be able to give the extra-push when working out, I thought.
What is blowing my mind though is that at $dayjob my team is going through a crazy crunch to deliver a very strategic project and some of us are pushing 10-12h days often. I'm in hour 12 today for the second day in a row, and my head is not tired at all. Turns out the brain also uses a lot of ATP too, specially during demanding cognitive tasks so I guess it is creatine that is keeping the engine running smoothly even after so many hours.
I will like once every week or two have a poor night sleep. These days I take twice the dose and I don't feel like I'm sleep deprived at all. Feels like cheating! And apparently no side effects at all so far. Well, maybe I'm working too much.
The overall fitness is going to definitely have a positive effect on the perceived energy levels (my Vo2 max is at its highest ever). On the other hand, I have been very fit at other times in my life but have never experienced this "my head can just go on" feeling before. I used to take conscious breaks, do NSDR between meetings and other energy-replenishing tricks because I __needed__ them. It feels like now I don't
Mind that, while the "creatine high dose to fight drowsiness" hack works and has no side effects (other than upset stomachs), the lost sleep still does it thing. You don't notice day to day but it will catch up to you eventually in many bad ways.
Definitely! I would not recommend it to make up for lack of sleep for extended periods of time.
One of the things I'm trying to do better lately is to have a good sleep hygiene. Sun in the eyes early in the morning, no caffeine for the first 60 waking minutes of the day (adenosine absorption period), no screens 2 hours before bed and whatnot. Still, some nights I will just wake up in the middle of the night and won't be able to get back to sleep, then it's when I feel creatine helps
Some people report less GI distress with creatine HCL but it’s much more expensive.
The GI issues are caused by the creatine absorbing water. This causes your gut to have more water than usual as it follows the creatine through the works… which causes… urgency.
The effect diminishes after you’ve been taking a regular dose for a while, even with just monogydrate (not HCL).
Some people say HCL causes less distress because it doesn’t draw water as much. Others argue that defeats the purpose of taking it.
Monohydrate is studied to death and proven effective, HCL not so much.
The studies I've seen from HCl claim it's more bioavailable too, so you only need 1/3 the dosage compared to honohydrate. That makes the cost pretty comparable.
But otherwise, I'd agree that monohydrate has significantly more research behind it and I'd default to that if it's tolerable.
Creatine is one of the few if not the only supplements we actually know work. But with that said, my experience is that the bump is there but not world changing. Although it could be placebo, I don't think so because the first time I started taking it I noticed something but didn't make the connection because I noticed it playing basketball and not as much lifting. I could just sprint a lot easier. I recently started taking it again and again I noticed I can sprint easier and not be as spent. Of course you can improve by simply working out regularly, but IMHO the bump you get is obvious.
I started taking a scoop of the Creatine Hydrate from Costco every afternoon because why not. Wife had bought it and the bag was sitting right there.
I honestly don't know whether it made a difference. Sleep didn't get worse, no noticeable metabolic effects. Possibly the "perma tired muscles" I've been suffering from increasingly since about age 57 (I'm an active cyclist) have gotten a bit better, with <50% of days affected rather than >90% last year, but even that is subjective.
If "taking the stuff" means "more uptake" (does it?) and there are other beneficial effects, bring it on.
I can concur on the short-term benefits for longer sets as well as the shorter recovery. Creatine is just one of those no-brainer supplements.
It's safe, cheap, and long-term-study proven to be extremely effective.
You will want to increase your daily hydration (at least for otherwise healthy men, a good sign is that you're "peeing clear") as Creatine does increase water retention.
any recommendation for tendon/joint pain? I'm in my early 30s, and try to lift regularly, but my joints/tendons seem to be the limiting factor when lifting, and not really muscle tiredness/soreness
As it's relevant to the sport I practice and just came back from armwrestling training I'd like to randomly comment: Armwrestling clubs have a LOT of people with tendon pain and injuries. The general approach to recovery and building tendon strength (beside lifting heavy) is to do static holds of 10 seconds+ of light to medium weight. Often paired with very large sets (50+ reps) of _extremely light_ weight; lifting almost nothing, just to get the blood through the tendon. You should not feel sore at all in either movement. The idea being that blood gets into tendons through movement. As for static holds; tendons expand during these static holds, so the idea is that they can then absorb more nutrients... Or something like that; I'm no expert by any means!
In the bouldering community there has also been a bit of an uproar where Emil Abrahammsson (find it on Youtube) did very light static holds 2+ times per day for ~30 seconds if I recall correctly for great tendon strength, this also had some influence on how people train for armwrestling. This style was nicknamed "Abrahangs".
I'm going to get yelled at, but eat bacon. Fat is good for tendons. Obviously don't eat immense amounts, but if you're eating none, try eatong a couple of slices on workout days.
I doubt it, it's not the area where creatine is helpful. It'll influence energy provision which helps your muscles recover, and even be a bit stronger in general. I'm in my 45's but I don't experience tendon or joint pain while lifting (my numbers are not going to impress anybody though, but I do train pretty hard). Were I in your shoes I'd take a trip to the GP to try and find out what the source of your pain is. I am tempted to say I would also start taking creatine, but not if you're increasing your load as a result.
Isometric holds. Tendons grow slow and recover slow, generally not as much circulation as muscle.
Big heavy holds will help encourage blood flow without stretching them / stressing them as hard as big lifts.
It seems weird because it goes again ROM ideas, but it has definitely helped protect my arms for rock climbing as well as less fatigue in my legs for big lifts.
Except for old injuries that never completely healed, you should not be suffering joint pain at your age. For starters, you likely should shift to lighter weights.
A general rule is that, after 26, any muscle or joint injury you suffer will never completely heal. So
- avoid injury scrupulously. Don't accept gym challenges (even your own). Be wary of odd exercises, machines, routines. Don't do anything hard at first, always start easy. Be lazy, build up and take your time: you have the rest of your life. Don't work out while under the influence of alcohol, especially when with friends. I avoid certain sports, e.g., any martial arts, soccer, football, even baseball, b/c the variety of situations(and consequent accidents) is so unpredictable as to be uncontrollable. Organized sports like sprinting, hurdles, gymnastics and high jump are risky too.
- avoid over-stressing muscles and joints. Keep the cardio up - maybe try the gym classes with music (the crowd is better-looking and friendlier).
- See a doctor if you suffer pain unduly.
I anticipate "someday soon" cures for tendon/joint pain but I've been waiting too long to expect their arrival before I die!
It sounds you have the hardest part of it underway - consistency.
There's lots of studies - if you can get over 20g per day it is noticeable to the brain and energy. Adding a few grams a week until you're up there I found it noticeable. 20-30g seems to be a noticeable range.
Supplements aren't always like a coffee spike, they build up and sustain quite well.
20g is a loading dose (typically for a week), then it's 3-5g daily for maintenance. But I've seen studies that 5g daily catches up to the 20g loading dose after about a month.
I've taken creatine for 20+ years, nobody does the "loading" dose anymore, or shouldn't be if they still do. Maybe it stills says it on the jars but there was tons of information a decade or more ago that it was deemed as a way to get you to blast through your jug faster. 5g is the normal dose. You're always taking in creatine eating normal meat added meals.
This is giving me flashbacks to using bodybuilding.com forums.. man, long time ago.
It is my 100% always buy supplement. I only have 2 of those now, protein the other. It absolutely helps me think better and feel better throughout the day. Noticeable when I stop taking it. And its dirt cheap. If I had more disposable income I'd have a few others but I went from tons of supplements to basically nothing. I never use PWOs or anything now, even when I do have money.
I haven't seen the 20g loading dose recommendation on anything recently either. Everything I've seen just recommends 5g/daily.
My regular supplements that I've noticed made any difference is: creatine, vitamin D, and fiber. With vitamin C and protein being situational as needed.
Yeah pretty much this. I took creatine back in high school/college to build muscle mass. In those days we would load with 20g for a week -> then do 5g for 8 weeks -> cycle off for two weeks -> repeat.
I'm back on it now for endurance sports (trail running + cycling) and the advice is to just take 5g a day and don't worry about cycling off. At 5g/day it takes 4-6 weeks to saturate your muscles.
It does have a noticeable impact on water retention, so this year I cycled off six weeks away from my "A" race and lost 5lbs of water weight. It was a 100 mile mountain ultra so I thought the extra pop on the climbs probably wasn't worth the extra weight over the entire course (but probably was worth it while doing hill reps in training). Next year I'm sticking to shorter stuff where I'll run up more climbs. For those I don't plan to cycle off.
There’s just so much evidence that creatine is something people should take daily, and now this?
I’ve taken to snorting it. Straight to the brain it goes!
you joke, but that is a real issue for some
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_creatine_deficiency
I've been smoking mine
- Enhances ANTI-tumor... sounds good - ANTI-tumor immunity... sounds bad? - Read first few paragraphs as a typical medical rube, got nowhere
So, creatine = good?
I mean the summary ends with pretty clear message
So it seems that from this research the outcome is indeed creatine = good
Don’t worry, if you aren’t confused enough there’s also this to send you through another cycle! https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33811821/
Original title may be clearer?
Creatine uptake promotes dendritic cell activation and enhances antitumor immunity
Original title is too long, I had to shorten it
"Immunity" = "immune system activity." "Anti-tumor immunity" = "immune system activity against tumors."
Thankyou!! I'm sure if you have experience in the medical space this sort of thing seems obvious, but to me (non-medical), the original phrasing was so confusing. Your explanation makes sense.
Anti-missile shielding
"But you get your choice of toppings." "That's good!" "The toppings contain potassium benzoate... ...that's bad."
Can I go now?
...in mice.
Imagine how healthy mice in general could live, if they were able to read all these research papers about themselves.
Now I am imagining a 501-C where school children are encouraged to read studies to mice. Children get better at reading technical papers, mice learn more about their options! Win Win!
I, for one, welcome our future inmice overlords.
They already do in their own dimension, all that dying and running down the wrong track in those mazes is just to befuddle us silly hominids.
Source: https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Mice
Did you read it at all?
Fair. Missed that bit tbh.
As it turns out, no one lets you generate mutant human embryos with deficient creatine receptors, grow them up into adult humans, inject them with melanoma, euthanize them and harvest the tumor cell mass and bone marrow for analysis.
Unhelpful. Sure, we can't do the same study in humans, but that doesn't mean the results are inherently applicable to humans
Please remember that this is a study not the ads and pop-sci articles usually posted here. That means it’s meant to elucidate at most some biological pathways and not to present an overall recommendation. Maybe creatine has strong anti-tumor activity through one pathway and strongly tumor-promoting impacts elsewhere.
Please… just read it as the isolated and interesting insight into biology that it is. It’s a fascinating in vitro result that shows a potentially important role for creatinine in a certain immune response.
Are there risks to creatine?
It can make you hold more water weight so you should drink more water in response.
i personally have problems with tinnitus and hearing loss, and creatine use tends to trigger it due to water retention so i stay off the stuff.
Interesting, I wonder how that is related? Do you believe you are getting hearing loss because you are retaining more water, or because you are dehydrated from retaining more water elsewhere in the body with the same intake rate? Does this go away if you were taking creatine and drinking more water? Or does it come up if you simply drink more water?
None
Essentially none. Creatine supplementation is a good idea for most people, especially vegans/vegetarians.
Why especially those?
Nobody gets fired for supplementing vegans.
Because they lack all kinds of substances that meateaters get plenty of.
I'm a vegan, and I'm surprised this is downvoted, because it's true. There are plenty of things that you need to be careful to not become deficient in on a vegan diet: protein (in appropriate amino acid balances), creatine, b12, the good Omega 3s (from algae preferably; flax is missing DHA entirely), calcium, iron, to name a few.
You're fine if you take daily algae oil, multivitamin, iron supplement, calcium, and creatine (without going overboard on any of it) and making sure to get lots of protein from balanced sources (eating a ton of soy is actually not a bad idea, because it's a balanced protein), but I wouldn't recommend somebody who doesn't want to have to worry about their nutrition to go vegan. Enough omnivores are already deficient in vitamins and minerals, and veganism only makes it harder.
Not vouching for creatine, but in general, humans get some vital nutrients from animal consumption. Vegans have to take some B-vitamins for best health due to what they don't get from meat. I assume creatine is the same.
Because meat is the best source of creatine from diet.
Well, if vegetarians and those of the Vegan religion don't get enough creatine it is most likely related to them not partaking of an important source of the substance: meat.
Your body can synthesize creatine, so it's not essential, but meat is a source of exogenous creatine and eating it results in higher stored creatine levels, which is slightly good for muscle power endurance in the ~5-15 second effort range. Supplementing produces slightly higher relative improvements in creatine levels in vegetarians and vegans than it does in people who eat meat.
I get severe cramping from it (reproducible). All I can find are papers about this being a myth and some reddit threads about other people having this.
Did you try different sources I do not trust some of the stuff out there and often wonder if these supplements aren’t just generic white powder…
That would be an argument against trying a different source
I get this unless I drink a lot of water. About 48 fl oz seems to be the right amount for 10g creatine. Sometimes this needs to be combined with a light snack, like a handful of nuts.
I get it too if I don't drink a lot more water. So did many people on my sports team.
Creatine binds to water (making less water available to your muscles) and allows your muscles to work harder (which makes them need more water). So if you're not drinking a lot more water when you're taking creatine, you will get cramps from either dehydration and/or muscle overuse.
But once you're past the loading phase for creatine and getting sufficient hydration, it's supposed to lessen cramps because the water bound to creatine also becomes available for use again as the creatine is used by the body.
How much water can 3g of creatine bind to? Is it like orbeez?
My understanding is it's a bit of a bind and release process that moves the water from outside of the muscle cell to inside of it until the cell is saturated or the creatine is consumed.
So the amount of creatine changes the rate as which water is loaded into the cell, but the total amount of water needed is calculated based on your muscle mass. The figures I've seen is 2L extra water (spread evenly, not all at once) for a normally recommended 5g daily creatine intake during loading (which typically takes a month at 5g/day dosage).
Yeah, of course I tried to drink more water. I also tried to ramp up the dose slower.
But the cramps are really debilitating, as in random back muscle locks up debilitating, so I thought it best to just give up on this.
I don't think dosing affects much, as long as you have excess creatine, the extra water requirements are determined by your muscle mass.
Excessively large doses make your stomach and perhaps your kidneys unhappy and supplements being lightly regulated there may be purity issues where the risk is what else is in it.
But it's pretty safe at recommended doses.
Maybe
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/nutrition/articles/10.3...
Worse beach looks
Creatine causes intramuscular water increases, not subcutaneous. Doesn't actually have a negative impact here.
Generally no, it's expensively studied and has had daily consumption to be safe for upto 5 years at least (studies haven't generally gone longer).
That being said some people do have adverse effects to supplementation, e.g. excessive water retention, bloating, stomach discomfort, &c.
So try it, if you have a bad reaction stop.
Potentially lots poopies.
As it was mentioned elsewhere it might make existing cancers worse, and decrease survivability. Cancer seems to love it.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25601461/ https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2021.03.009
More accessible video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcMgHncZVIw
Note that they gave the mice 10mg per day, which is around 3g per day for a 70kg human - i.e. a normal dose.
worth noting that there’s evidence both ways… tumor cells may like it too:
- Loo et al. 2015 found color cancer cells can use it as fuel and blocking the creatine cut metastasis in mice [0]
- zhang et al 20921 found it promoting mouse colon and breast cancer models [1]
not an expert in any way, but i’m guessing it depends on cancer type and there doesn’t seem to be human data either way. as a cautious person w a lot of familial cancer, i cycled off after i looked into it.
[0]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25601461/
[1]: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2021.03.009
also https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-026-74639-z
related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48346947
(I regret posting that blog post, but the study and discussion is interesting)
So what’s the latest? That everyone should take creatine and GLP-1s?
Adverse side effects of creatine are generally less severe than GLP-1s
With a peptide chaser.
I wasn’t being facetious. I seriously am asking if everyone should actually take creatinine and GLP-1.
Any reason someone at a healthy BMI should take GLP-1?
I'd like to try a low dose GLP-1 for inflammation benefits but I'm not overweight (5'-9" 162 lbs) so I don't think I could buy it.
That said, a little appetite suppression would be nice. I spend too much of my day thinking about food and that's annoying... For the past couple of years (I'm 56) my cravings for food have skyrocketed and if I ate as often or as much as I want to, I'd pack on weight fast.
A few years ago I did start taking 300 mg of nicotinamide riboside daily and that has helped quite a bit with inflammation.
That and everyone should be taking a statin.
Near as I can parse it, as a very, very anti-woo person, is as follows:
In a healthy individual with a balanced diet and no deficiencies, there are essentially zero supplements that do anything whatsoever to a measurable degree. Essentially the entire supplement aisle at Whole Foods or whatever is completely woo and useless, and any advertisements are someone trying to make money from you, or some mindless viral craze with no evidence. The exception to this general rule is omega 3s (fish oil is great for this, algae oil is even better given potential heavy metals in fish), protein supplementation if you're weightlifting, and creatine. GLP-1s are a wonder drug that are great if you are not a healthy individual and wish to be.
The whole creatine craze reminds me of Vitamin D a couple of years ago. Which also sounded harmless, but can go very wrong if not careful
This is vague and doesn't explain anything. Can you share any references that communicate what you're thinking about?
They're talking about vitamin D, which accumulates due to being fat soluble and is indeed toxic at a certain level[1]
It became something of a panacea nutrient, recently around COVID.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_toxicity
I've also heard about it 'hardening' in the bloodstream and that you should really be taking it with K2 as well. This is anecdotal so someone please do more research than basing anything from this comment
And, if you drink a glass of carrot juice a day, you'll receive toxic levels of vitamin A!
~40% of people don't get enough vitamin D [1]. It's not useful to categorize it as some trend, based on people just not following general recommended dosing (with more precise dosing depending entirely on personal sun exposure and skin color).
edit: As an office worker, I take 10k IU per day when I'm entirely indoors (most of the time), but vary it based on sun exposure. I based this on recent studies, and have my doctors approval with an exactly center-of-the-nominal-range vitamin D serum level.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9573946/
You'll also go orange [0]
0: https://drink4good.com/can-drinking-too-much-carrot-juice-tu...
These numbers seem high to me. The 75 nmol/L (30ng/L) is not really a reliable value. It was published in a research that raises many questions due to conflict of interests.
Hence the
becomes:
Where I live the norm is 20 ng/L and if we apply that, then the shocking 40% becomes more reasonable 10-15%
My doctor added vitamin D test to his patients recurring blood work since the start of COVID, and found out just about all his patients was deficient or near it.
If you don't have a primarily fish based diet or spend hours under direct overhead sunlight every day without a shirt on, you're probably deficient as well.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, Vitamin D does not require hours in the sun:
Source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8299926/
Now that's for most people: if you live in Alaska then during the winter maybe you need a litle more or something ... but the point is most people just need a little sun, < 30 minutes twice a week.
Your own link shows that what is considered toxic levels are far higher than most people would expect. Vitamin D toxicity is not that easy to accidentally hit.
Overdose has been observed at 1,925 μg/d (77,000 IU per day). Acute overdose requires between 15,000 μg/d (600,000 IU per day) and 42,000 μg/d (1,680,000 IU per day) over several days to months.
Unless you have specific issues, creatine is pretty easily excreted in excess, unlike fat-soluble vitamin D.
This doesn't mean you can just pound it, but for the most part it just becomes waste product.
You definitely want to take breaks from Creatine. It’s not something people should take year around.
Citation please? Creatine is one of the most studied modern supplements, and I have yet to see anything that says to you'd need to 'take breaks' from it...
I understood the idea that you need to cycle creatine to be a myth.
Craze? People have been taking creatine for decades. It's really well studied and is quite safe.
I saw someone handing out samples of creatine at Costco the other day, spouting all sorts of stuff like it's a wonder drug.
It's definitely becoming mainstream.
I've taken it off and on for the past 15 years, the most noticeable effect is about 5lbs of weight gain. I do think it helps gym performance and the increased water retention mames for better muscle definition.
This is such a crazy substance. I'm 43 and I feel like I have more energy than I have ever had before. I started taking it during recovery from a bad ankle fracture since it helps building muscle mass. Once the ankle was better I took up CrossFit, and kept on taking creatine because why not, it helps replenish ATP so I will be able to give the extra-push when working out, I thought.
What is blowing my mind though is that at $dayjob my team is going through a crazy crunch to deliver a very strategic project and some of us are pushing 10-12h days often. I'm in hour 12 today for the second day in a row, and my head is not tired at all. Turns out the brain also uses a lot of ATP too, specially during demanding cognitive tasks so I guess it is creatine that is keeping the engine running smoothly even after so many hours.
I will like once every week or two have a poor night sleep. These days I take twice the dose and I don't feel like I'm sleep deprived at all. Feels like cheating! And apparently no side effects at all so far. Well, maybe I'm working too much.
is it possible that this is the bump due to your workouts and not plainly creatine ?
I take creatine daily but when I'm working out more than a couple of weeks, i feel much better than on weeks when I skip working out.
great question. Can I take creatine and skip the workout hassle?
For me, just creatine doesn’t seem to do a whole lot. But heavy workouts (with or without creatine), energize me enormously.
Going from minimal exercise to light-moderate exercise will do as much for you as creatine would. To me it's almost a no-brainer to try doing both.
The overall fitness is going to definitely have a positive effect on the perceived energy levels (my Vo2 max is at its highest ever). On the other hand, I have been very fit at other times in my life but have never experienced this "my head can just go on" feeling before. I used to take conscious breaks, do NSDR between meetings and other energy-replenishing tricks because I __needed__ them. It feels like now I don't
You mentioned that you took up CrossFit after starting creatine. Did your previous fit phases include lifting heavy weights?
No, mostly cycling (~200km+/week with one 100km+ ride) and 30 minutes of daily yoga
Mind that, while the "creatine high dose to fight drowsiness" hack works and has no side effects (other than upset stomachs), the lost sleep still does it thing. You don't notice day to day but it will catch up to you eventually in many bad ways.
Definitely! I would not recommend it to make up for lack of sleep for extended periods of time.
One of the things I'm trying to do better lately is to have a good sleep hygiene. Sun in the eyes early in the morning, no caffeine for the first 60 waking minutes of the day (adenosine absorption period), no screens 2 hours before bed and whatnot. Still, some nights I will just wake up in the middle of the night and won't be able to get back to sleep, then it's when I feel creatine helps
Edit: Typo
I suspect creatine is responsible for me not being able to get back to sleep easily, because once I'm awake, I'm awake.
Do you take the standard 5g or something else? What's your weight?
~5g most days, ~10g if I didn't sleep well. I'm currently 68kg
Any tips on GI impact? I pair mine with food and lots of water and it's improved but wondering if there's any more I should be doing
Some people report less GI distress with creatine HCL but it’s much more expensive.
The GI issues are caused by the creatine absorbing water. This causes your gut to have more water than usual as it follows the creatine through the works… which causes… urgency.
The effect diminishes after you’ve been taking a regular dose for a while, even with just monogydrate (not HCL).
Some people say HCL causes less distress because it doesn’t draw water as much. Others argue that defeats the purpose of taking it.
Monohydrate is studied to death and proven effective, HCL not so much.
The studies I've seen from HCl claim it's more bioavailable too, so you only need 1/3 the dosage compared to honohydrate. That makes the cost pretty comparable.
But otherwise, I'd agree that monohydrate has significantly more research behind it and I'd default to that if it's tolerable.
I took double the dose once and I regretted it. I was in the bathroom pretty often that day.
Anything over 5g is hard on my stomach. I take it in my protein shake in the morning and dont notice any issues.
It's beyond crazy, lol. How many grams are you doing a day?
It has replaced in some ways caffeine for me.
The part of where creatine wipes out sleep deficit sounded like a stretch, but it definitely helps.
And this is surely thanks to Creatine. Amazing!
Have you tried stopping creatine? How do you know it's the creatine?
I've been taking it for almost a month and I plan to stop to see if I notice any change back that would make me want to start taking creatine again.
Creatine is one of the few if not the only supplements we actually know work. But with that said, my experience is that the bump is there but not world changing. Although it could be placebo, I don't think so because the first time I started taking it I noticed something but didn't make the connection because I noticed it playing basketball and not as much lifting. I could just sprint a lot easier. I recently started taking it again and again I noticed I can sprint easier and not be as spent. Of course you can improve by simply working out regularly, but IMHO the bump you get is obvious.
It has an especially noticeable effect if you're a vegetarian. I'm a lifelong vegetarian, and high doses of it for me are a crazy cognitive enhancer.
Oh I’ve been mostly plant based for years, maybe that helps explaining the difference
I started taking a scoop of the Creatine Hydrate from Costco every afternoon because why not. Wife had bought it and the bag was sitting right there.
I honestly don't know whether it made a difference. Sleep didn't get worse, no noticeable metabolic effects. Possibly the "perma tired muscles" I've been suffering from increasingly since about age 57 (I'm an active cyclist) have gotten a bit better, with <50% of days affected rather than >90% last year, but even that is subjective.
If "taking the stuff" means "more uptake" (does it?) and there are other beneficial effects, bring it on.
If you start lifting weight at the gym you quickly will feel the difference: your muscles recover much better during the set breaks.
I can concur on the short-term benefits for longer sets as well as the shorter recovery. Creatine is just one of those no-brainer supplements.
It's safe, cheap, and long-term-study proven to be extremely effective.
You will want to increase your daily hydration (at least for otherwise healthy men, a good sign is that you're "peeing clear") as Creatine does increase water retention.
any recommendation for tendon/joint pain? I'm in my early 30s, and try to lift regularly, but my joints/tendons seem to be the limiting factor when lifting, and not really muscle tiredness/soreness
As it's relevant to the sport I practice and just came back from armwrestling training I'd like to randomly comment: Armwrestling clubs have a LOT of people with tendon pain and injuries. The general approach to recovery and building tendon strength (beside lifting heavy) is to do static holds of 10 seconds+ of light to medium weight. Often paired with very large sets (50+ reps) of _extremely light_ weight; lifting almost nothing, just to get the blood through the tendon. You should not feel sore at all in either movement. The idea being that blood gets into tendons through movement. As for static holds; tendons expand during these static holds, so the idea is that they can then absorb more nutrients... Or something like that; I'm no expert by any means!
In the bouldering community there has also been a bit of an uproar where Emil Abrahammsson (find it on Youtube) did very light static holds 2+ times per day for ~30 seconds if I recall correctly for great tendon strength, this also had some influence on how people train for armwrestling. This style was nicknamed "Abrahangs".
I'm going to get yelled at, but eat bacon. Fat is good for tendons. Obviously don't eat immense amounts, but if you're eating none, try eatong a couple of slices on workout days.
I doubt it, it's not the area where creatine is helpful. It'll influence energy provision which helps your muscles recover, and even be a bit stronger in general. I'm in my 45's but I don't experience tendon or joint pain while lifting (my numbers are not going to impress anybody though, but I do train pretty hard). Were I in your shoes I'd take a trip to the GP to try and find out what the source of your pain is. I am tempted to say I would also start taking creatine, but not if you're increasing your load as a result.
Isometric holds. Tendons grow slow and recover slow, generally not as much circulation as muscle.
Big heavy holds will help encourage blood flow without stretching them / stressing them as hard as big lifts.
It seems weird because it goes again ROM ideas, but it has definitely helped protect my arms for rock climbing as well as less fatigue in my legs for big lifts.
Except for old injuries that never completely healed, you should not be suffering joint pain at your age. For starters, you likely should shift to lighter weights.
A general rule is that, after 26, any muscle or joint injury you suffer will never completely heal. So
- avoid injury scrupulously. Don't accept gym challenges (even your own). Be wary of odd exercises, machines, routines. Don't do anything hard at first, always start easy. Be lazy, build up and take your time: you have the rest of your life. Don't work out while under the influence of alcohol, especially when with friends. I avoid certain sports, e.g., any martial arts, soccer, football, even baseball, b/c the variety of situations(and consequent accidents) is so unpredictable as to be uncontrollable. Organized sports like sprinting, hurdles, gymnastics and high jump are risky too.
- avoid over-stressing muscles and joints. Keep the cardio up - maybe try the gym classes with music (the crowd is better-looking and friendlier).
- See a doctor if you suffer pain unduly.
I anticipate "someday soon" cures for tendon/joint pain but I've been waiting too long to expect their arrival before I die!
Creatine is one of the most studied supplements.
It sounds you have the hardest part of it underway - consistency.
There's lots of studies - if you can get over 20g per day it is noticeable to the brain and energy. Adding a few grams a week until you're up there I found it noticeable. 20-30g seems to be a noticeable range.
Supplements aren't always like a coffee spike, they build up and sustain quite well.
I thought around 5g is the recommended daily dose?
20g is a loading dose (typically for a week), then it's 3-5g daily for maintenance. But I've seen studies that 5g daily catches up to the 20g loading dose after about a month.
I've taken creatine for 20+ years, nobody does the "loading" dose anymore, or shouldn't be if they still do. Maybe it stills says it on the jars but there was tons of information a decade or more ago that it was deemed as a way to get you to blast through your jug faster. 5g is the normal dose. You're always taking in creatine eating normal meat added meals.
This is giving me flashbacks to using bodybuilding.com forums.. man, long time ago.
It is my 100% always buy supplement. I only have 2 of those now, protein the other. It absolutely helps me think better and feel better throughout the day. Noticeable when I stop taking it. And its dirt cheap. If I had more disposable income I'd have a few others but I went from tons of supplements to basically nothing. I never use PWOs or anything now, even when I do have money.
I haven't seen the 20g loading dose recommendation on anything recently either. Everything I've seen just recommends 5g/daily.
My regular supplements that I've noticed made any difference is: creatine, vitamin D, and fiber. With vitamin C and protein being situational as needed.
Yeah pretty much this. I took creatine back in high school/college to build muscle mass. In those days we would load with 20g for a week -> then do 5g for 8 weeks -> cycle off for two weeks -> repeat.
I'm back on it now for endurance sports (trail running + cycling) and the advice is to just take 5g a day and don't worry about cycling off. At 5g/day it takes 4-6 weeks to saturate your muscles.
It does have a noticeable impact on water retention, so this year I cycled off six weeks away from my "A" race and lost 5lbs of water weight. It was a 100 mile mountain ultra so I thought the extra pop on the climbs probably wasn't worth the extra weight over the entire course (but probably was worth it while doing hill reps in training). Next year I'm sticking to shorter stuff where I'll run up more climbs. For those I don't plan to cycle off.
Not a typo, 20g+ a day.
Dosing for gym exercise is different than dosing for excess creatine to reach the brain.
Well studied, checked with my doctor, including for TBI. Obviously everyone should check for themselves.
I thought it was too, then I started learning about how so many studies about Creatine were only in the body, and not the brain..
And then there were the discoveries of creatine in the brain in studies.
It has a noticeable effect if you lift.
Before you get scooping, see also "Caffeine and progression of Parkinson’s disease: A deleterious interaction with creatine" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4573899/
Real question, if Creatine is actually this good, what product specifically are people using?