If you want to compare before and after:

https://earth.google.com/web/search/31%2e297226,+34%2e243649... - then click "show historical imagery" next to the search box.

The horror of the "Playground" marker here: https://earth.google.com/web/@31.28532193,34.25349609,77.611...

I'm a little confused by this one, because if you hit the "Show historical imagery" button, and go back through the prior years, I don't really see much or anything of a playground there.

It's sad that most world leaders do nothing to combat such genocide. There are so few sanctions against the state, or specific people, of Israel. Foreign forums are very much still open for business to them.

What do you think world leaders should've done differently?

Cut off weapon gifts+sales to Israel, impose sanctions. Same way we dealt with the South African apartheid state.

Israel has both nuclear weapons and the Epstein files, so that's not really an option (granted: SA had nuclear weapons too, but nobody really to drop them on).

Nuclear weapons sure, but what is this about Epstein?

Epstein (and Ghislaine Maxwell in particular) are widely believed to have operated as a massive Mossad blackmail operation, collecting (and creating) blackmail material against western politicians and influential individuals to ensure their support for Israel.

I won't go into details that support or refute this claim, but that is what the parent poster likely meant.

and it seems pretty likely that's exactly what was happening.

The idea that a nation-state was/is running a child sex trafficking ring, and we're *not* turning over heaven and earth to investigate that so that country faces unprecedented consequences...I don't even know what to say

Why is it likely ? Why not Russia ? I’ve heard it’s Russia ?

A lot.

Literally on Oct 7, Hamas tried to return civilian hostages, who the IDF killed. This is why Hamas changed policies to only give up hostages through 3rd parties. They reached out to israel to try and return hostages and were ignored. They reached out to the US to return hostages and were ignored. [1]

So for starters, the US could have pressured Israel to negotiate with Hamas to return the hostages.

As Israel started to show genocidal intent (for example, killing aide workers multiple times). The US could have at a minimum threaten to withhold aide. In fact, there are laws on the books that a country such as Israel committing war crimes is ineligible for aide.

Finally, the UN should have deployed peace keepers to gaza specifically to stop the genocide.

Actions could have been taken, but they weren't because our politicians are so bribed by Israeli lobby money as to turn a complete blind eye to it's misdeeds.

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-politics/2026-09-...

So you feel like after October 7, there should've just been a talk about what happened and some form of negotiation ?

Hamas tried to return civilian hostages

What a bizarre claim and outright lie. They kept them locked up and starving. They could’ve just dropped them off near the border with Israel or Egypt, or handed them over to the Red Cross (which wasn’t even allowed to visit and check on the hostages).

What he means is they could have been traded for all of the concessions Hamas wanted in exchange for them.

And yes this is true but the reason you couldn’t comprehend his point is because his point is insane.

This is an uncharitable reading of my point and not what I meant.

What did you mean then?

Finally, the UN should have deployed

UN has no such power. I am still amazed how people do not get this.

Members need to vote for such things to happen. It wouldn't, not in this climate.

The question was

What do you think world leaders should've done differently?

Members should have voted in the UN to deploy peace keeping troops. The UN does have that power if it's voted for. This isn't a question of the current realities but a question of what the right actions are.

This is where you notice that the world is more complicated than social media posts.

Like it would've been a nice idea, until you realize that Hamas is heavily backed by Iran, Iran is helping Russia, Russia is invading Ukraine, and it starts to look like that level of intervention is a step towards a world war.

Then you notice world energy markets are going to be effected by a massive conflict etc.

If the UN went into Gaza, got attacked by Iran, then had to respond, next minute they're attacking a close Russian ally, and maybe even China might have to get involved in that.

What would've been good is if October 7 didn't happen, and that goes for both sides.

Iran would WELCOME UN peace keepers in gaza, are you kidding? Hell, I think even Hamas would welcome their presence. UN peace keepers would mean the likes of UNRA could operate once again in Gaza to deliver aid. It would also mean that Israel would have to stop it's aggression.

Iran is helping Russia

lol, no, other way around. Though the Russia hasn't really been involved with Iran since Ukraine started. It's actually China that's the biggest Iranian trade partner.

The only party that'd be upset over UN peace keepers in Gaza is Israel.

I don't think what you're saying is actually right, if peacekeepers came in, it would (likely) mean a freezing of the current borders / situation, and isn't that what most people say justified October 7, "the theft of land"?

That's not how that answer was phrased. It directly indicated that the UN should have taken that action.

That would result in the USA going to war against the UN. There is a reason the UN only takes action when the security council agrees. Countries on the security council can plausibly use their military might to prevent any UN action, so to prevent the senseless deaths of peacekeepers, they are given a verbal veto instead.

No it wouldn't? We are talking hypotheticals. When talking about what world leaders should do I include the US in world leaders.

I wasn't engaging in what's likely, just what should be. Biden and Trump should have been on board with deploying peace keepers. They were not.

If Biden or Trump would simply cut off funding there probably wouldn't be a need for peace keepers any more.

That’s a complete misrepresentation of the facts.

Hamas was willing to return hostages if israel freed all thousands of Palestinians prisoners, including those captured in Israel while committing the Oct 7 massacre.

And that is exactly what sinwar wanted to achieve in every one of his wars, just like when in 2014 Israel traded 1 captured Israeli soldier for 1000 Palestinians prisoners.

So basically Hamas wanted israel to surrender, accept Hamas terms, and ignore Oct 7.

Send all collaborators to the international criminal court. (In the US, especially congress critters and members of the executive branch.)

Also, blockade Israel proportionally to the Gaza blockades. I doubt they would have kept murdering red cross members in Gaza once the supermarkets started running out of food.

Do not forget that world leaders are heads of sovereign states that are in charge of their self defense. Those that actually have to defend themselves, like the US, rather than relying on strong allies, need to make public statements that are not hypocritical about what they would do for self defense. This is why both U.S. administrations support Israel's actions

Pretty sure that's not why US administrations support Israel's actions.

Its really telling to see the destruction limited to where the structures used to be rather than to all of the surrounding green spaces. If the destruction of civilian dwellings was purely an accident you'd expect to see the destruction spread evenly over the area. Instead it looks much more like a prolonged set of surgical strikes to destroy the buildings while preserving as much of the surrounding areas as possible.

For a great example of this, look at this pin https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcMbdFcx87PrqoYNA

And here's a pin of where the farms were spared https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZbbTH4iH27FCz4s9

I don't quite understand your argument here. In your first pin I'm struggling to find a single building that isn't leveled, or at least severely damaged. Even buildings far away from the city center in the boonies are leveled.

They are saying that this is genocidal destruction. In a war sometimes civilian infrastructure is hit as collateral. But here, all infrastructure is destroyed and it's clear this wasn't done by 1 or 2 errant bombs but rather because of direct targeting. It can't be argued to be an accident because in farmland you see no bombs which hit the farmland by mistake. In other-words, this is entirely purposeful.

this is entirely purposeful

Please check Norman Finkelstein's latest book namely Gaza's Gravediggers on this matter [1].

He also has a very telling and chilling interview recently on Palestine and Gaza [2].

[1] Gaza's Gravediggers: An Inquiry into Corruption in High Places [book].

[2] Norman Finkelstein Reveals Shocking Discoveries While Researching History of Israel’s Gaza Obsession [video]:

https://youtu.be/Jmv2h1WYnNo

What a nice, objective guy:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/uyqjn2/norman_fink...

He also promotes transphobia. Chomsky was friends with Epstein and acquaintance of Steve Bannon. I don’t think that discredits his entire body of work, but I think we should stop promoting him when there are sources that are less problematic.

A war requires at least two militaries. This is what happens when a well armed military engages a mostly unarmed civilian society unable to mount significant opposition.

"Before the October 7, 2023 attacks, the total size of Hamas’s military wing (the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) was estimated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and intelligence agencies to be between 25,000 and 30,000 fighters, with some intelligence assessments placing the upper limit as high as 40,000. This army was organized into five regional brigades and 24 battalions."

"Hamas's military force prior to October 7, 2023, was roughly 3 to 4.5 times larger than the United States military when measured as a percentage of their respective total populations."

You don't need to compare the military forces. You can compare the casualties on both sides or, for a different perspective, you might count the civilians killed inside their own territories (you might count the West Bank if you really want accurate numbers).

Forced displacement is also considered a war crime and, considering what is happening in Gaza and at the West Bank, it would qualify as genocide as well.

comparing the casualties just shows that Hamas are incompetent not that they aren't trying.

There were a lot of arms used over the border on October 7th, more confiscated on video and being used on video against the IDF, and the constant stream of unguided rockets being shot at civilians year after year. Rockets are weapons.

Hamas describes its fighters as their “military wing”. They engage in military training exercises and wear uniforms (when not fighting). That’s a military.

While it may be dumb, gross, and a hate crime against their civilians: war was the exact and predicted outcome of the attacks Hamas launched. They made statements to that effect, kicking off a regional war was central to the plan on October the 7th.

almost as if they didn't have the best interest of the civilians in mind uh

As Emiliano Zapata once said, "Better to die standing than to live on your knees".

While I don't condone violence, it's a legitimate way to defend against occupation.

This is actually codified in international law IIRC - a nation that's subject to some kind of apartheid occupation has literally unlimited rights to resist its occupiers.

If it was genocide, why would you spare the farmers? Doesn’t really make sense.

It’s more efficient to spend your ammo on housing and city buildings.

Wouldn’t it actually be much more efficient to just destroy all the food infrastructure and just have everyone die from hunger instead of destroying all the houses?

Looks the same in Ukraine, and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.

Doesn't mean that here the targeting couldn't have been done with the primary goal of displacing the population, but the buildings being destroyed doesn't prove the motive.

Does it look the same in the Ukraine? I haven’t seen any footage of entire cities leveled like this.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-26/damage-data-reveals-e...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/5/24/satellite-...

And that just from the start of war.

Yeah, we can look at how Mariupol looks on satellite images. It looks nothing like Rafah. You have to be completely blind to not see the difference.

Here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TncezF72LxaWAKYY7

Seriouslly?

You can find lots of videos of Russia firing thermobaric weapons into populated areas - you will find none fired by Israel into Gaza. And I don't think that's because IL doesn't have them.

(i can't edit apparently): why the downvotes? Serious question I don't understand, is there anything I said above false? The parent comment is questioning whether RU cruelty in Ukraine is anything close to what IL did - and the answer is yes, it's actually much worse, especially when you factor in that it's completely unprovoked.

There is no way it’s worse. To be comparable the Russians would have to have flattened Kyiv and most other cities which is extremely far from reality. The cities being flattened are all in the frontline as there is no way to take a city by force without basically destroying every building.

The destruction in Ukraine is mostly focused on the front line. Gaza was treated as a front line almost in its entirety, with almost no place to hide.

To busy using white phosphorous on kids.

Red herring, my argument was not "everything IL army did was good", it was "RU army's behavior is so much worse, how can you even question that?". IL obviously was at the very least "not very concerned" about civilian population; but I don't think there's established evidence that they were actively trying to kill civilian population, just for the sake of it, with no military advantage. Whereas, e.g. "human safari" is a well documented thing in the Russian army.

It does not look the same, at all.

Looks the same in Ukraine

It does not.

and at least there it's most likely not primarily because Russians wanted flatten the city (I'm sure they'd have preferred taking it in one piece) but rather because fighting happens from buildings resulting in the buildings getting targeted.

What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position. Everything gets pounded, even forests and tree lines. It’s more like Verdun than anything that happened in Gaza.

It does not

In absolutely does [1].

What happened on the Ukrainian frontlines is a war of position

If Gaza is a genocide then Ukraine almost certainly is too. The same messaging about exterminating a culture that doesn't "actually" exist from senior leadership. The same attacks on children. The same destruction and systematic razing of civilian settlements.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySLyCjNnrI

The same thing happens in Ukraine in the urban front lines. Villages get erased with artillery and bombs, as basements are the best place to survive drones and fires from artillery and bombs.

Systematic destruction of urban areas is sadly what modern urban combat operations look like.

When an enemy digs in and choose to fight and die in an urban area, this is how war plays out.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/28/how-russias-invas...

WAR IS HELL

A lot of destruction is from bulldozers like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Caterpillar_D9

The way the IDF fought in Rafah and other areas is leading with bulldozers that can take RPGs, IEDs, mines etc. to clear way for troops behind. That's how the tunnel and other guerrilla advantages are neutralized.

So yes, the destruction is absolutely purposeful, its purpose is to take away the advantage of the tunnels and guerrilla tactics, and enable excavations for tunnel access and detection.

The sequence was something like this (AI assisted):

Early May 2024, the IDF issued extensive, phased evacuation orders. This prompted an estimated 1 million to 1.4 million civilians—many of whom had previously fled to Rafah from other parts of Gaza—to evacuate to designated zones like Al-Mawasi.

Once ground troops secured these largely emptied areas, the IDF Combat Engineering Corps moved in. Objective satellite damage assessments show a massive spike in structural destruction in Rafah beginning in the summer of 2024, directly correlating with the ground invasion.

Satellite imagery confirms that ground forces used controlled explosive demolitions and heavy earth-moving equipment, including armored D9 bulldozers, to systematically clear residential blocks, agricultural land, and infrastructure.

This mechanical destruction was particularly concentrated along the Philadelphi Corridor (the Gaza-Egypt border) and in eastern Rafah. The military objective of these block-by-block clearing operations was to uncover and destroy cross-border smuggling tunnels and to establish a widened, flattened security perimeter where structures previously stood.

In summary, while aerial bombardment occurred prior to and during the invasion, you are correct that the wholesale, block-by-block leveling of Rafah was heavily driven by engineering operations using bulldozers and controlled demolitions after the majority of the civilian population had evacuated the targeted areas.

evacuation orders. This prompted an estimated 1 million to 1.4 million civilians

"Evacuating" a million people who will not be allowed to return is "ethnic cleansing".

You can also see a lot of buildings demolished on the Egyptian side too.

In 2015, the Egyptian government announced a plan to demolish the entire Egyptian city of Rafah, in order to deter smuggling with the Gaza Strip. More than a decade on, most of it is gone. The residents were forcibly relocated to elsewhere in Egypt.

It also looks similar to Mosul in Iraq before and after the ISIS and Iraq and coalition forces fought:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middlee...

Urban warfare is brutal, especially when one side systematically digs in and uses IEDs and booby traps in civilian buildings.

Yeah, this is not what happened here. You can look up Israeli articles from the time that described that nothing was going on for weeks on end other than demolitions. Basically no fighting. You get Israeli politicians repeating beforehand that Rafah will get leveled.

They wanted to level the city, they did. That's all. There was some fighting eventually with a few fighters holed in in Rafah, but nothing that would justify this. And Israelis continue leveling entire areas the whole year after so called "ceasefire" during which there were almost no attacks on them, yet they managed to murder more than a thousand of people.

The buildings were levelled with bulldozers for the most part after the civilians left during combat operations against the tunnel infrastructure and any remaining combatants. Not sure what the "surgical strikes" comment is about. Are you asking why weren't open spaces destroyed or attacked?

How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?

It encourages the former occupants leave the country. Once they all leave or die, there will be no more tunnels or insurgents.

That is a definition of a genocide[1].

[1] https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition

Not quite. Perhaps you were thinking of "ethnic cleansing" ?

It seems bonkers to me that we’re nitpicking what to call a given mass extermination of human lives, like some kind of deranged Clippy. Talk about loss of perspective.

The link provided in your parent post explicitly says there is no precise definition of “ethnic cleansing”, so I don’t even understand why you’d think the distinction matters.

seems bonkers to me that we’re nitpicking what to call a given mass extermination of human lives

The OG genocides involved deaths in the millions [1]. That requires killing with industrial efficiency, something that made it categorically unique from the "wipe out the village" warfare that goes back to, probably, before civilisation. (Chimpanzees do it. To my knowledge, they're the only other species that annihilates versus merely fighting off enemies.)

At lower kill volumes, even in the tens and possibly even hundreds of thousands, the line between conventional warfare done conservatively, conventional warfare done brutally and a process that, if left unhindered, will reach a million-man death toll.

(Then you have the ambiguity, one which does not apply in Gaza, introduced by displacement also being included in genocide and it starts to intersect pretty much perfectly with war.)

If we want these words to keep having meaning, we have to nitpick around their use. Otherwise, overinclusivity will consume them.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides

Its called something like collective punishment, something that many cultures practiced around the world.

have you seen the extent of tunnels that were there?

No, have you? Is there any independent confirmation of their existence?

How does bulldozing a family home have any affect on a tunnel?

The tunnel entrances and exits are tremendously hard to find. Some of them were located in private residences.

But Israel has an oil & gas industry. They have equipment that can look underneath a quiet city. If tunnel elimination were truly the goal, temporarily displacing the population while clearing operations took place should have been sufficient. As it stands, simply bulldozing over the entrances probably doesn't actually destroy the tunnels. It just hides their entrances.

The problem is that the homes are booby trapped. US would not send soldiers into iraq towns too- one trap - one ambush, and its artillery o clock.

the homes are booby trapped

Robots. These things can be cleared. Particularly if the population isn't there.

These things can be cleared. Particularly if the population isn't there.

Not if the trigger is based on detecting body heat. And you can't really clear more than the ground floor either, we don't have bipedal robots yet.

That's kind of what they did. Just in the most heavy-handed indiscriminate way imaginable. But the booby-traps are cleared, and they did use teleoperated robots to do that

Can you link to any documented cases of the US leveling a city after encountering a trap or ambush?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Basra_(2003)

There isn't any requirement at all to preserve civilian infrastructure being used to military purposes by the other side. If you are using it to hide a tunnel and booby trap it, the enemy can and in every case destroy it rather than risk their own troops.

Take a look see of what's happening to peoples houses in Ukraine.

It’s frustrating when people use civilians as pawns.

An alternative to levelling entire cities to the ground to find tunnels, would be to stop the expanding of the settlers, stop the apartheid within Israel, stop the blockade and starving on Gaza, and try to actually foster peace instead of constant conflict, pain and misery in order to retain power.

This is despicable, inhumane. It is generational trauma that started with the Nazis, now propagated to the poor souls around the new western colony of Israel.

This wasn't done with strikes, but with (remote controlled) bulldozers. https://idfclub.org/remote-controlled-warfare-how-israels-ro...

Look to Ukraine.

Every structure is eventually flattened.

The only difference is that Gaza, unlike Ukraine

- first had the option not to attack

- secondly had an option to accept a ceasefire and not immediately violate it 15 minutes later by firing barrages of unguided rockets into civilian neighborhoods

- had the option to actually respect the ceasefires and exchange hostages as scheduled

Gaza is being flattened because that is the only way Israel has to make sure this won't happen again. This is not unusual. Same situation as when the allies flattened nazi Germany.

But this time we are absolutely somewhat responsible because we reward hamas every time they do insane things that makes sure civilians get hurt.

If the understanding in media and among thought leaders back in 1945 were at todays levels we would have had people crying about the "genocide against the Germans"[1] and how the allies were the actual bad guys and we would still have a small nazi country in the middle of what is Germany today.

[1]: I mean seriously, at least 350 000 civilian ethnic Germans died in the war compared to well under 10 000 civilian Americans - and well under 2000 if we exclude sailors, so the numbers are very comparable

Israeli here. Maybe I can give some helpful context.

Most people in Israel have not, and probably will not see this - any “support” for Palestinians is seen as a very far-left idea after Oct 7. There are still many here who oppose the extent of the war - I see regular demonstrations in Tel Aviv calling for peace. I will note that there seems to be fairly universal agreement that _something_ needed to be done after Oct 7. If you want to understand the Israeli perspective (doesn’t seem like most commenters do, but I’m not writing this for them), you have to look at how Oct 7 shaped Israeli society these last 3 years.

But anyways, don’t take my word for anything, pay attention to our upcoming elections. We will see how big the tents are then.

Wishing for peace, for saner voices to rise, and for an end to this cycle of violence.

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America didn't do things like this after 9/11, we tried to build democracies in a naive way, failed, and got a lot of people killed unnecessarily. Iraq was completely unjustified and based on fabrications.

But we weren't trying to wage war against the entire civilian populations as revenge. That's an entirely different category of crime.

A lot of the stories that came out of Abu Ghraib sure sound like they have very strong parallels to what is happening today. At the level of "poorly trained reservists trying to do something difficult without sufficient oversight and getting frustrated and turning to torture" it sounds very similar.

And the destruction of Fallujah from Phantom Fury ended up only marginally better than what happened to Rafah (destroyed about a quarter of the buildings in Fallujah and damaged another quarter).

Abu Ghraib was a scandal, some people got punished, probably not all of the right ones.

When it came out that Israel was systematically sodomizing detainees with nightsticks, they had protestors come out in favor of the guards. It's still ongoing, all charges have been dropped. Nobody is scandalized by it.

That's a very flat take. That ignores the fact that the doctor that saw the prisoner reported it for investigation or that the military had chose to prosecute it, also you don't mention this was one case, not "systematic"

Even ignoring the fact that protests do not imply popular support, there is no comparison as 9/11 did not include widespread sexual violence and ongoing hostage rape was still going on at the time this happened.

So even if this seemed terrible to most Israelis, it was hard to find someone who will publicly defend a rapist from rape in jail

Sure if you ignore the UN Commission of Inquiry report from March 2025 that concluded sexual and gender-based violence was used systematically against Palestinian detainees.

the UNHR is comically biased against Israel though and controlled by totalitarian countries with less than stellar human rights records

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9/11 did happen to us.

Admittedly, this was before social media but back then you didn't get 50% support for gassing anybody.

That ended in a million dead over bi-partisan 20 years of war. Without 9/11 including massive hostage taking, rape or mass murder with torture in people homes.

The other main difference is that 9/11 ended within a few days, the hostage part of 7/10 made it an ongoing disaster for years in Israel.

I support Israel, but not wholeheartedly. I understand how Nakba was a matter of survival of your people. But why is this still going on today? Why is Israel continuing to expand settlements? Can you not understand how Palestinians must feel to constantly live in fear of being pushed out of their own homes? This is what gives me heartache. Can't you draw a line and say, what happened in the past cannot be reversed, but we will not continue to expand settlements?

Can't you draw a line and say, what happened in the past cannot be reversed, but we will not continue to expand settlements?

I did a study abroad in Israel in 2005 (not jewish, just for middle eastern studies) when Israel pulled out of Gaza and did essentially that. They forcibly removed settlers and left Gaza. As I recall most Israeli's thought it'd be good step toward peace.

Unfortunately Hamas took over Gaza shortly after and shot some 12k+ rockets into southern Israel over the next 20 years, and then launched Oct 7.

Unfortunately now there seems to be far less interest in Israel now in restricting settlers in the West Bank. I also feel for the Palestinians, particularly the Arab Christian communities, however extremists on both sides don't want peace.

They [..] left Gaza.

Sure, if you ignore the part where they kept bombing Gaza, assassinated political leaders, did ground incursions, and blocked it by land, sea, and air.

If Israel wanted a peaceful two-state solution, why did they keep occupying Gaza by turning it into an open-air prison?

Sure, if you ignore the part where they kept bombing Gaza,

The answer is in the post you replied to.

> Unfortunately Hamas took over Gaza shortly after and shot some 12k+ rockets into southern Israel

The position you’re describing is essentially the modern left position in Israeli politics. Again, we’ll see in the upcoming election, but not everyone here supports the current goings on in the West Bank. The “Palestinian situation” is a major question in Israeli politics, both wrt Gaza and the wb.

One thing you will find across the board is that nobody is willing to compromise on security. Most voters today remember the second intifada. There is no serious political position where Israel fully withdraws from the wb. But there’s a big difference between “massively expanse settlements” and “phase out settlements and make room for the possibility of a future Palestinian state”.

The words “Palestinian state” are usually political suicide here in Israel, but the fact that Palestine is recognized to various extent by many countries in the world means that eventually these two realities are going to have to clash.

The question is what did the government know before October 7th https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/2026/09/ra-vivian-repor...

If we have to look at how October 7 shaped Israeli culture, we also have to look at how all of the dates leading up to October 6 shaped Palestinian culture. How many people were killed in the West Bank on October 6 - does that register, anywhere?

Can you try to free your brain from political bullshit for a moment and think which kind of a person can come up with a plan to kill civilians not in the heat of battle, but with premediation and purpose? And in which kind of society this idea could have a wide enough support to be implemented.

While I vehemently disagree with the IDFs handling and it's hard to deny the genocidal effort, let's not forget Americans reacted very similarly after 9/11. People are not keen on ideas of peace after a large scale terrorist attack.

There are Street View photos that look like they were taken from someone driving down one of the side streets so you can pretty much walk on it. You can see apartment buildings, local shops, people going about their day... It’s heart-wrenching to contrast that life with the current aerial view, with nothing but rubble and destruction.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/31%C2%B016'58.6%22N+34%C2%...

How did they get those cameras inside and footage out? Isn't it an open air prison without electricity or internet, where you are shot immediately when trying to approach?

For comparison, here's Mosul in Iraq after the defeat of ISIS:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/15/world/middlee...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/middle-east/2016/11/01/battl...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mosul-satellite_n_596d34a3e4b...

This should be higher I think - it is pretty clear that cities get demolished during war, whether purposefully or not.

It's pretty clear you didn't look at the pictures. The destruction in Mosul appears very limited compared to the annihilation of Rafah.

The sad thing is that in a way the terrorist won.

Internationally Israel is probably positioned weaker than before and there is a fissure running through liberal societies from Ireland to France, from Portugal to Germany and probably similar in the US.

This is conflict polarizes. A good example is the recent election in Berlin, which was focused on the housing crisis but now devolved into name calling based on how people think of Israel. A minority might have voted “pro Palestine” but most people wanted affordable flats.

Sowing dissent among your adversaries is very effective.

"Sowing dissent among your adversaries is very effective"

Yes it is, and some countries have become very good at doing that

I take a harsher stance: that we should expect division to be sewn among us by our adversaries, and harden ourselves accordingly through open mindedness, debate, clear info, leaders who discuss deeply and write essays, integrity, best-faith debate (rather than flame wars, especially in popular contexts like tv and social media).

I find it strange that the antidotes to a lot of the bad stuff going on today is basic enlightement stuff: cultivating a citizenry who value evidence-based worldview, education and rule of law. Yet it feels like that is increasingly slipping from our fingers.

The sad thing is that in a way the terrorist won.

So did Netanyahu. His far-right policies require an eternal enemy to distract the people and blame for everything going wrong. The October 7 attack definitely didn't hurt his position in national politics.

I don't have a strong position on this but seems at least plausible that the Israeli security services did in fact know about Oct 7th but chose not to act.

I mean come on... Hamas were seen practising flying hang gliders around the strip and one of the most paranoid states in the world didn't think that merited some investigation?

And everyone just happened to not be at their posts?

And everyone just happened to not be at their posts?

Is wrong. It is kind of you to show you don't know what you are talking about.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Well the official story IIRC is the border was more lightly manned than normal (and with more reservists than normal) because it was a national holiday.

But again does that make sense given how the Israeli elites feel about Palestinians? Just assume because it's a Jewish holiday Hamas will also take the day off?

Because if that is stupidity then yes, it is very stupid

Bibi had the advance knowledge and let it happen because he’s fine with collateral damage even if it’s his own countrymen. A few dead Jews are nothing to him if it means More Land To King Over.

“You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet” and all that.

seems at least plausible that the Israeli security services did in fact know about Oct 7th but chose not to act

Regardless of the facts in this specific event, you can make much the same argument about many of the major 21st century terror attacks - there were multiple warnings leading up to 9/11, and the FBI and CIA had eyes on several of the perpetrators before the attacks. They didn't "choose not to act" in so much as institutional disfunction prevented the dots from being connected or any preemptive action being taken, but from the outside it looks pretty much the same.

The Israel stock market is up about 100% since October 7.

The Israeli Shekel is so strong against the dollar it is causing issues with exports.

Israel has signed major missile defense deals with many European countries and just signed a major new one with Greece.

Gaza is in near complete ruins, the tunnel infrastructure Hamas spent the past 2 decades building is being destroyed.

Nasrallah was killed and Hezbollah is severely diminished militarily and politically in Lebanon.

Iran’s nuclear weapons program and ballistic missile capabilities have been severely damaged and no longer pose an existential threat, at least for the time being.

Israel is doing very well since October 7 whereas Hamas and Gaza is not.

Iran’s nuclear weapons program and ballistic missile capabilities have been severely damaged

Is that the same program that was compeletly damages last year?

I think he was talking about a political war. Now we have on HN's home page a link pointing to someone using the term holocaust against Israel/Jews, which is quite perverse if you know history.

I have no stake in this conflict.

The flip side of your statement is that more nations than before decided to recognize a Palestine state and that it seems for the first time in decades US support for Israel is waning.

Israel is military and economically strong. It’s also a small country in a difficult region that needs trade partners and international connections, probably more so in a future full of climate change.

Since October 7 Israel has signed major missile defense and military tech export deals with various European countries including just recently Greece which is also part of a special military alliance with Israel and Cyprus.

Also in general, the less reliant Israel is on foreign powers, especially the US, the better for Israel. The waning support in the US is a good thing, there are various domestic Israeli political reasons why this was bad.

To the extent that this international isolation exists and is growing it is a good thing.

Since October 7 Israel has signed major missile defense and military tech export deals with various European countries including just recently Greece which is also part of a special military alliance with Israel and Cyprus.

You already said this in your parent comment?

There are several factors involved as I see it - a lot of money from Qatar flowing to make sure Israel is always shown as the aggressor, anti-semmitism is still prevalent, most people can't grok what the issue is in the Middle East anyway, people don't understand what living 10km from people who want to kill you looks and, and war is horrible and it's always easier to side with the people who seem to be the underdog.

most people can't grok what the issue is in the Middle East

In your own words, what is the issue in the Middle East?

The problem is the inexorable logic of war - fighting everyone everywhere all the time - has led to the war expanding until it collides with an enemy that is actually comparable to Israel, i.e. Iran. And that war has now expanded to include the world's supply of oil.

It's going to affect everyone, and I don't think you can stop Western voters noticing that the price of fuel has gone up. Then they're going to start sharing the blame around: Iran, yes, but also Trump and Netenyahu.

It's hard to blame Iran when they literally weren't doing anything until we attacked them. You don't blame a child for punching back against the school bully - unless you're also a bully.

Look at the pictures from the original post.

Imagine the death and destruction caused by the hands of Israel.

Realize that this reaction wasn't necessary. Those who run Israel are adults. They could have chosen a path with much less deaths. They were not forced to commit a genocide, they chose it.

Realize that when people see such pictures, of entire cities completely leveled to the ground, that people get extremely upset. Imagine the place you live reduced to rubble and how atrocious you would find this. The inhabitants of Gaza are humans just like you and the world is justified in their disdain.

Not only should we be critical of how Israel wages this war, but we should also recognize the role of Hamas. Deliberate killing of non-combatants, civilian abductions, unguided rocket and mortar fire, use of human shields, perfidy and disguise, all war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Most of us here in the US don't have to worry about threats of terrorism like this. It doesn't excuse Israel's (many) war crimes but often we don't acknowledge the horror of Hamas on Israel and Palestinians when talking about this conflict.

Also Russians have just bombed a Dobrobut hospital in Kyiv. One of many war crimes happening every day. We also need to be talking about that conflict as well.

The main difference here is that Russia is not funded by western nations nor is it an ally to most of NATO countries. The gripe many of us have with Israel's actions is that we enable them directly by providing money, weapons and manpower. No nation in the west will hesitate to condemn Russia's war crimes, whereas just recently we started seeing some manner of blowback to Israel's.

The situations are not the same, but western nations are absolutely funding Putin’s actions through oil and gas imports.

Despite a lot of posturing, and a fair amount of presumably sincere effort, billions continue to flow.

This war's blood is on your hands. It could have been stopped in January 2022, it could have been stopped several months later. There were other occasions, every time you torpedoed whatever efforts there were. In all cases you pursued your "geopolitical" goals, which is to dismember Russia, take its territory and resources, and do to its people things way worse than what you (yes, you) did to them in the 90-s.

As for the war crimes, "for some reason" you don't tell about the ukranian ones, which are plenty. As you are - of course - not concerned with their homicidal nationalistic anti Russisn propaganda, which gives further "motivation" to these crimes.

You forgot the extensive tunnel infrastructure dug under all these civilian areas. The fighting in civilian clothing. Weapon caches and tunnel entrances in civilian buildings. Booby trapping civilian structures to kill soldiers that attempt to search/enter them. Mining roads in civilian areas to inflict damage on invading forces.

None of Israel's critics is able to suggest some significantly different strategy that would allow Israel to after Hamas. So the discussion inevitably ends up (with said critics) at Hamas had a right to commit these crimes, because they are the oppressed/occupied, and Israel has no right to defend itself by going after and defeating Hamas while minimizing its casualties like any other western army would do and has done (see Mosul or many other examples).

It should be noted that Hamas exists because of the occupation and atrocities that Israel has been committing for decades and decades. All war is atrocious, the actions of terrorists are disgusting, BUT you cannot discuss the actions of Hamas in a vacuum and forget why they even formed in the first place and continue to carry out their actions.

As soon as you murder civilians you lose all your justification. I mean both sides.

In every war civilians are murdered. By both sides: bombing of rotterdam, Dresden, Hiroshima…

if you mean that all war is unjustified, consider stating that plainly. if that's not what you mean, then perhaps there is some nuance left out of your statement.

f you mean that all war is unjustified, consider stating that plainly

Most war is unjustified. Violent resistance is almost never unjustified if one lacks access to elections.

But violent resistance that targets civilians robs itself and its cause of justice until that rot is removed and regretted. It's not only morally wrong. It's strategically stupid. Terrorist tactics do not work–they radicalize the enemy and unfavorably polarize the alliance space.

Remember the videos Ukraine circulated of sharing tea with Russian POWs? Imagine if Hamas had only targeted military outposts and then shared images like that one from its bunkers under Gaza City?

A cause can be fundamentally justified but still piss away its advantages with poor strategy. At the end of the day, Hamas has acted in Iran's interests. Not the Palestinians'. (Same with Hezbollah. Same with the Houthis, though to a marginally lesser degree.)

I used to believe this.

It seems like a reasonable take. But when we look at any oppressed group, getting murdered at the hands of their oppressors, there often is no negotiation through peaceful means.

History shows us that the threat of violence or violence becomes a necessary point of leverage to bring about change.

American schools have washed the story of the civil rights movement, but MLK only had success because of Malcolm X.

There’s many other historical instances of this. Whether it’s the Indian Independence movement in the 1940s fighting from British rule, the 1500s-1800s of native Americans resisting our ancestors colonialization, our own American revolution, and even labor movements like the battle of Blair mountain in the 1920s.

We like to propagandize American history where non-violence was productive, but violence has always been an unfortunately necessary tool when it comes to changing oppression.

Where did I say non-violence?

I said don't murder civilians

What was there before Hamas?

The PLO, which was getting too peaceful for Netanyahu's tastes so he had to prop up Hamas instead.

Think about how the modern communists love Hamas despite Hamas not being pro LGBT.

Think about how the PLO was a KGB linked terrorist organizations.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106419296113226300

Also using child soldiers.

But the West does acknowledge it, almost exclusively. Any criticism of Israel's war crimes are followed by "But do you agree that Israel has a right to exist?" and "Do you condemn Hamas and the attack they conducted in Oct 7"? Mainstream media only shows Hamas actions, and only recently started highlighting Israel's war crimes due to increased souring of their reputation among audiences. Hamas actions also shouldn't be taken in isolation, the atrocities of October 7 didn't happen in a vacuum, but as a reaction to a conflict that has been happening for almost 80 years that is overwhelmingly one sided.

You mean, Hamas, one of the only armies that doesn't fight with a uniform and hides artillery in civilian buildings?

Pin-pointing Hamas and Oct 7 is pretty much a logical trap, because Netanyahu and Hamas had been symbiotic -- which put them in the very same ballpark. Both enjoyed their own external threats, and, through that, established strong political influence.

The one difference is that Israel always had been able to control the situation for decades to its liking, while Hamas had been passively reaping the hatred that Israel had sown -- only until October 7.

So, Israelis fearing Hamas? That's a horror they created through their democracy, purely by abusing powerless people. Total hypocrisy.

that's non-sense. Symbiotic is a horrible way to put it. You and I may not be supporters of any of them but to call a terror organization with a clear charter of destroying Israel and killing all jews symbiotic with Nethanyhu is just succumbing to a narrative someone is feeding you.

these kind of messages show us how good propaganda and brain washing is.

This is one those arguments that has a strong version that is wrong and a weaker version that is true but then it's up to you to assess responsibility and blame

I won't post the answer here but I'd suggest anyone to ask you favorite llm (Opus for me) the following prompt:

Assess the statement that Nethanhyu has been working to prop up Hamas or with Hamas in some sort of "my best ennemy" scheme

If you can't bother to write it why would anyone bother to read it?

A new Haaretz investigstion found that on October 7 Hamas offered to release the hostages. Israel said no. That's because Israel needs the hostages to be hostages as a casus belli.

I am just tired of having to sort through the endless half-truths people post over and over. Can't you just get at least the information right ?

The ALLEGED offer was to release hostages under 18 and over 50 IN EXCHANGE of stopping the ground incursions and changes to Al-aqsa mosk access

Was it a reasonable offer ? Should they have accepted it ? I don't care, I just care that you get your (alleged) facts right.

It's sad that so much of this conversation has devolved into technicalities of whether this is a genocide.

You can't look at this, at reports coming out of Gaza and the West Bank, at Israel's own government officials' statements, and not, at minimum, believe that brutal war crimes were committed on a massive basis here. Whether it's "Holocaust level" or "genocide" is a red herring. It needs universal condemnation, it needs to stop, and the people who did it need to be held accountable.

it needs to stop

It did stop. When the hostages were freed and Hamas gave up. Which they could have done at any point. Or you know, they could not have started the war too.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/18/run-get-away-w...