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US sanctions force The Netherlands off Microsoft and toward alternative NixOS

169 pointsby 2h agotomshardware.com
84 comments
1h agoHN ↗

It is more like self imposed sanction against US made products. There are now tons of open source operating systems and applications that can replace Microsoft products, which are basically some old programs. The replacements cost vastly less for use and support.

1h agoHN ↗

Citation needed on the costs vastly less to support and use.

1h agoHN ↗

Very much. There are a lot of hidden costs in computers. What does IT cost you? If everybody already knows the other program how much productivity is lost before they figure out the slight changes with the new (they will learn but experts will need time to become experts).

1h agoHN ↗

That’s not a citation. Of course you want to have actual research to substantiate these statements.

29m agoHN ↗

Sorry, I'm saying the things I want a citation to look at. A lot of citations are too superficial.

41m agoHN ↗

No monthly fees and most software is available on opensource

windows -> linux mint OR reactOS OR OpenSUSE OR NIXos ( their choice) and many more

excel -> many of them as well as google spread sheet for free

Word -> Gazillion editors on open source; some much much better; and there is free google editor to boot

PowerPoint-> again Gazillion opensource replacements

Paint-> is a joke. Open source stuff is 10 times better

I don't want to advertise these products but you have access to search engines; look it up..

What is it that you think is so special? The only reason people are using the stuff is momentum carried from the past and PC being sold preloaded with windows.

In my opinion that is.

12m agoHN ↗

"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." -- Vance Petree, Virginia Power

10m agoHN ↗

Google is not a very viable alternative when you're trying to evade US sanctions

28m agoHN ↗

I do not know in this case, but I led migration and cost benefits analysis beforehand of very large Windows 3.11 to 95 to 2000; at the time there was nothing else that was considered useful and there still pain and massive cost. Later on we had to consider Linux as alternative; it just wasn’t close ; the stability (yep), easy of use etc was just not feasible. Now that Linux is good and easy to configure to basically be exactly like Windows and now that most custom applications of large corporates are web based and specific ones can be ran via Citrix for a few people who need it, I am guessing it finally is cheaper now. And 90% of users won’t even notice the difference; I remember when I was planning my first 3.11 to 95 migration that people were by far most stressed about users unable to open applications as they remember not the name or the icon but 2nd row, 3rd down is Word. Start, 5 up, 1 right, 3 down is internet. Etc. So as long as that’s the same, you are fine. It’s how most our clients still work so we take care never to move functionalities; only add, no delete.

1h agoHN ↗

Yeah. Trump has been ripping out US infrastructure globally. Trumps administration and vance(GOP finance chair) elon(doge) thiel(owns vance) need to be removed ASAP.

7m agoHN ↗

Of course you would want to procure products that work for all of your employees. The idea that you could just cut off certain elements of a foreign government was really shortsighted.

1h agoHN ↗

Good thing the Netherlands isn’t the most critical single node for advanced chip equipment, cause that could become awkward.

Oh wait, it is.

But it’s ok because Us President has made it clear the the USA doesn’t need anything Europe has. So, not a problem.

1h agoHN ↗

USA and Netherlands (alone, and within EU) have signed an agreement concerning that about two months ago.

1h agoHN ↗

The US government already exerts extensive control over ASML's business. The Netherlands can't leverage it in any kind of strategic way because a large part of the technology itself is American and it's very hard to untangle. It's the true definition of a "multi national" company.

1h agoHN ↗

a large part of the technology itself

A tiny fraction of the technology itself started as an ineffective "American" invention, copying a Japanese discovery/invention. In fact when ASML acquired the company, specifically because it couldn't do what they wanted and they needed to vastly improve it, a Japanese company had a superior product in the same space, but ASML saw the Japanese company as too much political baggage given how protectionist the Japanese often are.

How funny it all turned out, right?

1h agoHN ↗

ASML sold nothing in Europe in 2026, they would implode if they stopped selling to US companies

1h agoHN ↗

There is a lot of noise for public consumption but the reality is that the US control the Netherlands and most European countries, and in fact while this noise has become louder in recent years so has the dependency of Europe on the US...

54m agoHN ↗

The Dutch government let the USA store their nuclear weapons in the 60s in Vonkel already. We have long lost our sovereignty.

1h agoHN ↗

I still don't get why EU governments and agencies don't standardize around an already existing industry proven OS the EU already has domestically, which is SUSE, and need to each go reinventing the wheel their own way, which leads to higher costs and more fragmentation across the EU.

I heard the reason was that NL doesn't know if SUSE will be sold off again and might end up in the hands of some US PE, but here's the thing, you're the government, you can just block the sale of companies related to sovereign national security like those making operating systems. You can just do things when you want to. You literally have that power. Exercise it for once FFS.

1h agoHN ↗

Might be related to NixOS being strongly related to Netherlands and them picking local

1h agoHN ↗

Yeah well that's why the EU federal idea is and will be a failure. It wishes to be the challenger to the US and China hegemony in theory, but then every individual country wants to be its own special mini-boss in its own playground hoping they'll be at the top of the helm, that develops and uses its own separate things that will hopefully get adopted by the other EU members.

1h agoHN ↗

You have it in reverse. A federal EU enables EU countries to pool sovereignty and strength to protect itself from the US and China. It neither needs to or wants to challenge anyone. A federal system allows EU wide decisions to be made quickly and without petty parochial concerns.

Constituent states rightly can choose to make their own decisions in matters like this, it hardly effects anyone else, and they can choose to collaborate.

1h agoHN ↗

Is that why US failed while building CP/m, Unix a few, Dos, Windows, MacOs, OS/2,…? A successful market does not impose monopolies. The more, the merrier.

1h agoHN ↗

A successful market does not impose monopolies. The more, the merrier.

Yeah but when it comes to national sovereignty you can't let your own products get steamrolled by the entrenched monopolies of your adversaries (Google, Microsoft, AWS, etc) just because you want the idealistic 'free market' while your adversary protects their monopolies to weaponize them against you on the "free market", making you indefinitely dependent on them. The "free market" doesn't work when it's run and often abused by your adversary so that it can profit at your own expense.

1h agoHN ↗

Cooperation and competition can be partial. Google and Microsoft compete internally and then cooperate when fighting external forces. There is no reason why this cannot work for European companies too.

The problem has more to do with the weak sense of belonging to a supranational identity. Californians and New Yorkers both identify as Americans before they identify as members of their home state; the opposite is true of most Europeans still. Change is slow.

6m agoHN ↗

Californians and New Yorkers both identify as Americans before they identify as members of their home state; the opposite is true of most Europeans still.

You don't need to completely erase and crush ethnic and national identities in order to standardize on technical platform for the common market.

57m agoHN ↗

When the market is as huge as US, there's lots of space for competition. Sadly in how EU is currently structured it would most likely be just german "Microsoft", spanish "Microsoft", french "Microsoft" etc.

1h agoHN ↗

I heard the reason was that NL doesn't know if SUSE will be sold off again and might end up in the hands of some US PE, but here's the thing, you're the government, you can just block the sale of companies

The Dutch government can famously prevent sales of German and Luxembourgish companies yes.

1h agoHN ↗

I meant the EU, at EU level, not the Dutch government. Also it's not like the Dutch government can't cooperate with the other EU members like Germany and Luxembourg on such vital topics. Unless of course trust inside the EU is so lackluster that the Dutch government can't be sure where Germany and Luxembourg will stand, in which case it's already over for the EU.

1h agoHN ↗

Does the EU have the power to block sales of companies on national security grounds? Or to get member states to standardise on software?

Its probably a good thing they do not have a standard, or at this point it would be Windows and pushing change through at the EU level would not be fast.

1h agoHN ↗

Does the EU have the power to block sales of companies on national security grounds?

Not on defense and national security, that's up to individual EU member states, but the EU does veto corporate mergers and acquisitions on Competition Law (Antitrust). So just find a loophole in that and use it to prevent SUSE be taken over by non-EU nations.

1h agoHN ↗

The governments "just" doing this or that, are typically the tyrannical or unhinged variety you don't want to live under. If your law is written decently and you have a functioning judiciary, chances of a loopholes surviving scrutiny will be very low.

The European Commission could definitely ask governments (the European Council) to agree a new treaty or protocol that grants them veto powers on "federal security grounds", for sure. The European Parliament would likely rubber-stamp it too. Considering the current (and increasing) right-wing majorities across the continent, though, I find such scenario very unlikely.

45m agoHN ↗

As an American, EU politics is such a fascinating bizarro world. Imagine the right wingers being a bulwark against unhinged expansion of executive authority on grounds of national security! It would be like statehouse Republicans blocking the Patriot Act. Unthinkable.

25m agoHN ↗

Well, the same in the other direction: imagine the free marketeers by definition, installing an autocrat big on isolationist policies, the dismantling of judiciary separation, and on picking winners in the market... Absurd! And still, here we are. Humans are funny and inconsistent like that.

21m agoHN ↗

By the way liberals in EU are center right to right :)

28m agoHN ↗

The governments "just" doing this or that, are typically the tyrannical or unhinged variety you don't want to live under.

You can always "just do things" whenever you want by interpreting or changing the laws first to fit your desired goal. And so there, now it's legal, because I just changed the rules to make it so.

Same how the "we'll now have to accept all those migrants illegally crossing our border without asking our voters if its what they want" was done, they decided overnight that its legal. Or how they can just block the right wing from winning elections in order to "just protect democracy".

We're already under tyrannical rule, except the system abuse just acts on the wrong topics.

1h agoHN ↗

The EU level doesn't have enforcement mechanisms, EU law is applied through member states changing their laws.

47m agoHN ↗

For context, the US once prevented that a German company AIXTRON was sold to a Chinese investor in 2016 (perhaps for good reasons). To me it would sound like a good deal for the Netherlands and Luxembourg/Germany if Netherlands would uses SUSE and the Luxembourg/Germany would step in to keep in in the EU.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/02/us-blocks-chi...

1h agoHN ↗

but here's the thing, you're the government, you can just block the sale of companies related to sovereign national security like those making operating systems

Last time I looked it was a Swedish owned German company. The government of the Netherlands has limited power there. Given its history and performance its quite likely to get sold and might end up in American or Chinese hands or anything really.

1h agoHN ↗

Trump attacking the Netherlands means transatlanticism is really dead.

I think this has a lot to do with how the case against Putin was built and Trump used his influence to disrupt it.

1h agoHN ↗

It's because the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu for committing war crimes.

1h agoHN ↗

The US had issue with the ICC since it first began in 2002. Multiple administrations saw it as a problem.

47m agoHN ↗

The year the ICC was established, Congress passed a law providing enduring authorization for a full scale military invasion of the Netherlands should the ICC imprison any US service member, government employee, or those of allied nations (including Israel).[1] It even prevents any level of the US government (local, state, or federal) from working to assist the ICC. Americans do not want to be beholden to a foreign court.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

57m agoHN ↗

And because Trump and co don't want to have to deal with such warrants against themselves.

It's the ultimate expression of US corruption. There's not even a pretense of fighting for justice any more, just fighting justice.

57m agoHN ↗

I'm probably wrong but I could have sworn there was an article that came out when Trump was elected something happened with data on microsoft accounts/server huh. I guess it's ungoogable right now. Might have just been hosted by US gov. Must have been funding related.

Anyway I don't support ICC grabbing power it does not have over other countries who do not sign on.

If the ICC wanted to be consistent they should target Hamas leaders, Iranian leaders, ect

46m agoHN ↗

If the ICC wanted to be consistent they should target Hamas leaders, Iranian leaders, ect

Iran is not a party to the Rome Statute and the court has not opened an official case against Iranian officials.

However, the ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri, Commander-in-Chief of Hamas's military wing for war crimes and crimes against humanity stemming from the October 7 attacks.

27m agoHN ↗

You'd be happy to know that ICC has also indicted three Hamas leaders (Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif, Ismail Haniyeh). Granted all three were withdrawn because their deaths were confirmed, but you're presenting it as if ICC only indicted Israeli leaders, which is not the case.

59m agoHN ↗

The EU is entirely subjugated to the US. No energy independence, militaries falling apart and out of date, no tech development or investment.

53m agoHN ↗

Maybe that's wrong?

The US can't even win a war in the middle east without NATO

What is the US going to do when China starts making their own moves?

48m agoHN ↗

Outside the US, NATO countries have very little power projection capabilities. A bit of france, a bit of UK and then nothing.

38m agoHN ↗

How's that power projection working in Iran/Yemen?

Would NATO change the equation?

39m agoHN ↗

The tricky thing these days is trying to figure out whether messages like this are coming from Russian or MAGA bots ;) In any case, good work comrade! Here's your potato / Trumpcoin. Now back into your troll cave.

1h agoHN ↗

No problem. After the next election in the Netherlands, Microsoft only needs to promise to build a local headquarters there and the future government will roll back to Windows at twice the previous cost, which is exactly what happened in Munich.

1h agoHN ↗

Sounds very social and very democratic.

1h agoHN ↗

People make it sound as if Munich flip-flopped on Linux. The then ruling social-democrats and the greens started the LiMux project in 2003! The social-democrats and the conservative christians ruling in 2020 switched back to MS Windows. The current administration is mandating open source but not specifically Linux.

I use Linux since the year 2000 and it has been ruff in the early days, no doubt. The desktop competition were MS Windows 2000 and XP, often lauded as peak MS Windows. Apple had all but disappeared. But 2020 I'd wager that average KDE desktop vs. average MS Windows 10 desktop would be a draw. Today it would be a KDE desktop win, but that's more due to MS Windows 11 suckiness than the leaps and bounds Linux made.

1h agoHN ↗

Several International Criminal Court (ICC) judges have been unable to access their bank accounts or receive routine salary payments and financial transfers due to financial blockages triggered by United States sanctions. In the country where they live

33m agoHN ↗

Frankly I think this is a good bit of hormesis for European countries. It's critical that we have domestic payment infrastructure.

24m agoHN ↗

Let's get rid of US dependency for governement infrastructure as quickly as possible please.

1h agoHN ↗

They didn't have to go with NixOS...

1h agoHN ↗

Had to be a team of circle jerk external advisories that want to become rich by inflating the effort here

1h agoHN ↗

They previously used openSUSE and then Fedora. But both have companies behind them, where-as NixOS does not. And with NixOS they are more sovereign.

55m agoHN ↗

They previously used openSUSE and then Fedora.

Why did those not work out? Why do they think things will be different with NixOS?

23m agoHN ↗

Fedora is connected to Red Hat which is a US company, which is exactly the dependence that is undesired

6m agoHN ↗

NixOS (or rather nixpkgs) in its current state heavily depends on GitHub/Microsoft at the very least, and switching to anything else is non-trivial.

1h agoHN ↗

I think it makes sense? You probably get an easier time reproducing a config on thousands of devices using NixOS?

45m agoHN ↗

Golden image deployments and netboot have been around for ages. If you want an unified system and control the infrastructure, it doesn't really matter which system you use.

I'm not sure why they chose nix. But it does make it easier to carry local patches than a lot of other systems. I hope they succeed.

6m agoHN ↗

The one that makes it trivial to carry over local patches is Gentoo. I carry a set of patches to every new computer and update them whenever neccesary. No overlay yet :P

36m agoHN ↗

it makes so much sense. a small team of experts maintaining a rock-solid base configuration providing the essentials, which can then be built on top of for agency/department or even personal specifics - all declarative, immutable, cachable, testable. I can't think of a better tool for the job.

5m agoHN ↗

As a downside, any change to software, version updates, keeping things secure now depends on the team is experts. Most are easy, some are hard (e.g. new software now requires a new Swift version - one person motivated enough to do that project has been pushing it for months), some are annoying (patch to libc means you're re-downloading your whole system).

As a positive thing, maybe at least nixos will get a serious security pipeline rather than the current best-effort community approach.

52m agoHN ↗

The more countries trade with each other and depend on each other, the better things are for peace and human advancement.

The zero-sum mindset that's de rigueur at the moment needs to die soon or the world that we'll inhabit is gonna suck.

42m agoHN ↗

But it would seem there’s a certain balancing act. Because that kind of economic integration can also create pressure points for an autocrat to exploit in ways that are contrary to peace and human advancement.

This is why many Enlightenment thinkers didn’t just view monopolies as an economic problem; they viewed it as a direct threat to free and just society.

34m agoHN ↗

We've gathered decades of evidence in support of this, with commerce and trade supporting global peace.

Though, it's nice to see in this particular case that a near monopoly player gets unseated and creates room for innovation.

14m agoHN ↗

The idea of "change through trade" mostly worked great (see most former socialist European countries), but sometimes not at all (see Russia and more recently the US), and China is kind of in the middle of both extremes and may swing to either side in the future.

43m agoHN ↗

How is that a sanction? seems like a blessing instead.

29m agoHN ↗

Hopefully this will cause Denmark and its banks to issue more Dankort cards

20m agoHN ↗

[...] its chief prosecutor lost access to Microsoft services, including email

[...] the program was aimed at refreshing the technologies used by the Dutch government in such a way that it would no longer be in a situation where it could lose access to critical systems at the whim of a foreign country

How does switching desktop OS help you retain access to email and payment services, neither of which care about your OS?

14m agoHN ↗

Because the ICC and Dutch authorities could no longer access their bank accounts or emails because of sanctions Microsoft chose to enforce .