id imagine if you have the location of a site that the largest pipes visible from satellite photography would be
consistently scaled in some manner with the tank size. this is guess
Funnily enough, I guess the more you cycle them, the bigger they get until they just collapse. So you have a lot of potential storage just before you have none.
I know you jest, but the US govt funds a lot of water science. Whether that's put to use in the public interest is another question ofc and one we should be asking
An interesting aside is that the process for making these salt domes is also used for mining salt. Drill a hole, pump water down, and up comes brine. The brine can be used as a chemical feedstock, e.g., for production of things like chlorine, sodium hydroxide (lye), and sodium carbonate for glass.
Salt contains the oil and helps seal small fractures. The rock salt surrounding the SPR’s caverns has extremely low permeability, meaning fluids have very little ability to pass through it. It also doesn’t react with petroleum. Under enormous pressures underground, salt also slowly deforms, which helps close small fractures. The salt itself can therefore contain the oil without a steel-and-concrete tank lining the cavern.
Oil floats on water, which means pumping water into the bottom of the cavern pushes the oil out. As fresh water is pumped into the bottom of the cavern, the oil gets displaced upwards into a delivery system.
The more water you pump in, the lower the quality of the oil that's pumped out; we are basically loaning the oil refiners money to buy SPR oil they don't really want. Also, the more water we pump in, the more salt leeches into the water and the more the bottom of the chamber deforms, creating shear forces in the upp walls that lower its overall structural integrity.
I've posted this before; it's a recent report on the status and maintenance of SPR facilities, which is very clearly written and well worth your time if you want to understand the topic better: https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-106918
I also think I've also replied this to you before, but +1 for the GAO report! I use the full report as my personal model yardstick on how I document technical decisions/issues for non-technical people. The PDF is attached here:
It is funny seeing how the estimates of the lower end stability vary drastically. Have seen numbers between 70 and 150 million barrels. I have just called it half way between that and think 110 million barrels is probably the lowest they should go.
Seawater is 10% saturated IIRC, so you'd have to make the saturated solution first, and if the easiest way to do that is to dissolve another cavern then using brine doesn't have much of a cost advantage over "use this one until it collapses, then dissolve the rubble or make another."
If you're gonna build a bunch of tanks on the surface to store that saturated salt solutions, you might as well store the oil in those tanks. The point of this salt cavern system is how little infrastructure it needs to store the huge volume of liquid.
It would be cool to see what these look like in a photo but I guess they're never empty of liquid. I wonder what happens to the oily water after we use it? Do we boil it until it evaporates?
There was a good comment on r/oil by someone who worked on the engineering for the SPR. Unfortunately it's fallen off the front page and I can't find it now, but:
Also, the more water we pump in, the more salt leeches into the water and the more the bottom of the chamber deforms, creating shear forces in the upp walls that lower its overall structural integrity.
It turns out that it's trivially easy to prevent the water from leeching out the salt. They presaturate the water with salt, so that it already contains the maximum amount of salt that can be dissolved for a given temperature. When they pump the brine out, it goes into aboveground brine pools that can easily be seen on satellite imagery. The salinity of this brine can easily be controlled: if you want to expand the cavern, you mix it with freshwater so the brine dissolves more of the edges, if you don't you pump it back in as brine.
Edit: Here, found some satellite imagery of one of the SPR sites:
In the salt it's pretty similar. The salt caverns are basically just like the conditions where the early, easily-exploitable oil deposits ("gushers") were.
I’m certain engineers have considered this, but it doesn’t seem answered anywhere: why not just pump the original brine back in to move around the oil? Wouldn’t that at least prevent eroding the storage unit and causing it to fail?
Unrelated: dang, he wasn’t underselling this being a pretty elegant solution! I never would’ve thought of it, for sure.
One fun fact I’ve heard is that the strategic oil reserve requires like 100-150 million barrels of oil to maintain operational pressure and even be functional. This means we can’t draw it down to zero; not even close.
AIUI, salt caverns don’t like to be filled with brine because they become more susceptible to temperature changes of the earth and pressure from surrounding rock. Both can heat the cavern, which is bad for structural integrity.
One thing about salt domes: they almost by definition are surrounded by very low-permeability dry soils. Because otherwise they would have dissolved long ago!
And a related way to use salt domes is for natural gas storage.
US has some of the world's largest natural gas deposits, and is a major producer of helium, so it makes less sense to have a strategic helium reserve. Even the SPR was created in the aftermath of the last middle east oil crisis, back when the US was a major net importer of oil, and many people have been saying we should scrap the SPR, as no major oil producer has an SPR.
The problem with the SPR is that it is used to manipulate prices, which was why Biden on the one hand cut oil leases and reduced domestic oil production, but then did major SPR drawdowns before the election to hide the realities of these policies. Now Trump is playing the same game, sanctioning oil producers and creating wars in the middle east, but using the SPR to hide the effects of these policies until after the midterm.
In both cases, we'd probably be better off without an SPR, so all of these actions against oil production would be immediately felt at the pump before the election and voters could respond quickly. It's just too tempting to have this tool to manipulate oil prices that incumbents can use before elections.
Another related way is to store nuclear waste. The properties (as described in this article, impermeable/self sealing etc.) sound great until the reality that water dissolves salt comes knocking and further confronts you with the reality that salty brine corrodes nuclear waste barrels...
Very cool, big fan of these bite size explainers. Has there been more cycling recently? Are the sizes of the caverns tracked anywhere?
id imagine if you have the location of a site that the largest pipes visible from satellite photography would be consistently scaled in some manner with the tank size. this is guess
Funnily enough, I guess the more you cycle them, the bigger they get until they just collapse. So you have a lot of potential storage just before you have none.
Makes you appreciate the physical infrastructure challenges, not just software. Bet the data logging and monitoring systems are ancient but robust.
Yea man the federal government is on top of protecting civilian groundwater supplies and communicating discoveries of contamination
I know you jest, but the US govt funds a lot of water science. Whether that's put to use in the public interest is another question ofc and one we should be asking
An interesting aside is that the process for making these salt domes is also used for mining salt. Drill a hole, pump water down, and up comes brine. The brine can be used as a chemical feedstock, e.g., for production of things like chlorine, sodium hydroxide (lye), and sodium carbonate for glass.
Salt contains the oil and helps seal small fractures. The rock salt surrounding the SPR’s caverns has extremely low permeability, meaning fluids have very little ability to pass through it. It also doesn’t react with petroleum. Under enormous pressures underground, salt also slowly deforms, which helps close small fractures. The salt itself can therefore contain the oil without a steel-and-concrete tank lining the cavern.
Oil floats on water, which means pumping water into the bottom of the cavern pushes the oil out. As fresh water is pumped into the bottom of the cavern, the oil gets displaced upwards into a delivery system.
The more water you pump in, the lower the quality of the oil that's pumped out; we are basically loaning the oil refiners money to buy SPR oil they don't really want. Also, the more water we pump in, the more salt leeches into the water and the more the bottom of the chamber deforms, creating shear forces in the upp walls that lower its overall structural integrity.
I've posted this before; it's a recent report on the status and maintenance of SPR facilities, which is very clearly written and well worth your time if you want to understand the topic better: https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-106918
I also think I've also replied this to you before, but +1 for the GAO report! I use the full report as my personal model yardstick on how I document technical decisions/issues for non-technical people. The PDF is attached here:
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-26-106918.pdf
It is funny seeing how the estimates of the lower end stability vary drastically. Have seen numbers between 70 and 150 million barrels. I have just called it half way between that and think 110 million barrels is probably the lowest they should go.
We can't pump saturated salt solution to prevent more salt from being dissolved?
Hard to find that
I don't know, the article mentions having to deal with brine. Let it evaporate in a pool and you've got plenty.
Seawater is 10% saturated IIRC, so you'd have to make the saturated solution first, and if the easiest way to do that is to dissolve another cavern then using brine doesn't have much of a cost advantage over "use this one until it collapses, then dissolve the rubble or make another."
If you're gonna build a bunch of tanks on the surface to store that saturated salt solutions, you might as well store the oil in those tanks. The point of this salt cavern system is how little infrastructure it needs to store the huge volume of liquid.
Just spitballing here, can't you just store the salt alone and make the hyper-saturated salt water on the fly? That seems reasonable.
Salt does not burn, unlike oil. It would be sufficient to store dry salt, and prepare the brine during the pumping. Still a lot of hassle, of course.
They do; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49735585
It would be cool to see what these look like in a photo but I guess they're never empty of liquid. I wonder what happens to the oily water after we use it? Do we boil it until it evaporates?
There was a good comment on r/oil by someone who worked on the engineering for the SPR. Unfortunately it's fallen off the front page and I can't find it now, but:
It turns out that it's trivially easy to prevent the water from leeching out the salt. They presaturate the water with salt, so that it already contains the maximum amount of salt that can be dissolved for a given temperature. When they pump the brine out, it goes into aboveground brine pools that can easily be seen on satellite imagery. The salinity of this brine can easily be controlled: if you want to expand the cavern, you mix it with freshwater so the brine dissolves more of the edges, if you don't you pump it back in as brine.
Edit: Here, found some satellite imagery of one of the SPR sites:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/B8XJ9TVhQfcdErky5
You can clearly see the brine pond, which is as big as the aboveground portion of the SPR itself.
How long does the crude last uner these conditions? Refined oil products like gas have pretty limited shelf lives (I think 6-12 months for gas).
well it's been underground in similar conditions for a couple dozen million years, so I think a while
Under ideal conditions - about 200 million years at least. In the salt, I'm not sure.
In the salt it's pretty similar. The salt caverns are basically just like the conditions where the early, easily-exploitable oil deposits ("gushers") were.
One time I heard the limited shelf life is by design to avoid consumers hoarding. Diesel OTOH fares better
What do they do with the brine when they fill it back up with oil?
And do they use fresh water?
Well worth your time if you are interested in a more detailed discussion https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-the-strategic-pet...
I’m certain engineers have considered this, but it doesn’t seem answered anywhere: why not just pump the original brine back in to move around the oil? Wouldn’t that at least prevent eroding the storage unit and causing it to fail?
Unrelated: dang, he wasn’t underselling this being a pretty elegant solution! I never would’ve thought of it, for sure.
Wouldn't you then need to solve the similar problem of where to store the brine in the meantime?
Yeah, but that’s probably easier to solve than eventually losing the whole dang structure!
One fun fact I’ve heard is that the strategic oil reserve requires like 100-150 million barrels of oil to maintain operational pressure and even be functional. This means we can’t draw it down to zero; not even close.
Dumb question but why not pump it back into where it was pulled from.. or just leave it in a a reserve paid for by the gov
Brine is useful to sell to industry.
AIUI, salt caverns don’t like to be filled with brine because they become more susceptible to temperature changes of the earth and pressure from surrounding rock. Both can heat the cavern, which is bad for structural integrity.
This way the US Gov can be a buyer of last resort. Backdoor bailouts.
One thing about salt domes: they almost by definition are surrounded by very low-permeability dry soils. Because otherwise they would have dissolved long ago!
And a related way to use salt domes is for natural gas storage.
And even helium, which is famous for its ability to leak out of almost any container you put it in.
The US formerly maintained a National Helium Reserve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve), in fact, until we decided that a helium reserve wasn't all that useful or important.
US has some of the world's largest natural gas deposits, and is a major producer of helium, so it makes less sense to have a strategic helium reserve. Even the SPR was created in the aftermath of the last middle east oil crisis, back when the US was a major net importer of oil, and many people have been saying we should scrap the SPR, as no major oil producer has an SPR.
The problem with the SPR is that it is used to manipulate prices, which was why Biden on the one hand cut oil leases and reduced domestic oil production, but then did major SPR drawdowns before the election to hide the realities of these policies. Now Trump is playing the same game, sanctioning oil producers and creating wars in the middle east, but using the SPR to hide the effects of these policies until after the midterm.
In both cases, we'd probably be better off without an SPR, so all of these actions against oil production would be immediately felt at the pump before the election and voters could respond quickly. It's just too tempting to have this tool to manipulate oil prices that incumbents can use before elections.
Another related way is to store nuclear waste. The properties (as described in this article, impermeable/self sealing etc.) sound great until the reality that water dissolves salt comes knocking and further confronts you with the reality that salty brine corrodes nuclear waste barrels...
This is a pretty popular topic this past month, huh?
https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-the-strategic-pet...
This is so incredibly interesting and one of the best things I’ve seen on HN recently. Thank you for the awesome post!
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49566946