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The Hierarchy of Money

100 pointsby 7h agogregorygundersen.com
46 comments
6h agoHN ↗

I feel like this is either AI-generated or severely lacks context.

There might be a point in there, but it might also just be paragraphs of text with little structure joined together.

What's the narrative? What does this want to tell me? And why?

Something like an opening header block with 2-5 sentences would go a long way.

6h agoHN ↗

I just copy-paste the text and ask AI to summarize for 90% of articles I see on HN. One of the most time-saving uses of AI.

6h agoHN ↗

That answers the what, but not the why. The why however I'd argue is a lot more interesting.

Also, you can often derive the what if you know the why and just follow the thread and map it out.

5h agoHN ↗

doesn't that mean you spend time reading the summary of articles you wouldn't have read on your own, and thus it wastes time?

4h agoHN ↗

It is also totally wrong. I got to the third block and quit, as this is just an LLM bullshit version of the 18th century bullshit fantasy of the origin of money (see David Graeber's Debt).

You can't describe how various forms of monetary value work in the modern monetary system as if it were a rural village with physical items, because it is fundamentally different.

4h agoHN ↗

It introduced vocabulary well enough though? I get that the specifics were all apocryphal.

4h agoHN ↗

I’m happy to hear criticism and to learn from that, but I wrote this myself. Took quite a while.

Re: why, I don’t think most people understand the very basics of the global economy in mechanical terms, and this was my attempt to explain those mechanics. I wanted the various pieces of the system to be motivated by understandable problems, hence the fable-like story.

I now see some folks were triggered by this stylized approach. Which is a pity. I think the simple setup is worth the payoff. My explanation of money creation, for example, matches the Bank of England’s whitepaper, and I am especially pleased with how the idea of a reserve currency both develops naturally and rhymes with earlier ideas lower in the hierarchy.

3h agoHN ↗

I'd suggest reading about David Graeber and the myth of bartering.

41m agoHN ↗

I'm sure Graeber is right about the ahistoricity of the orthodox just-so story of money, but I've always wondered if perhaps he misread the kind of claim that story is actually making.

What if economists don't really intend to make a factual historical claim? What if it's more like the principle of virtual work, if you take the analogy? What if it's saying, look, here are two possible configurations of the world: one with barter and one with monetary exchange. One of these configurations is "more stable" than the other. That's a reasonable explanation for "why" we use money, if you read "why" in a non-causal way.

Or maybe economists are straightforwardly careless historians. I don't know!

3h agoHN ↗

Your article was well worth the read. Thank you for that. It's merely a HN trend where lazy people who can't read an article bad-mouth it as AI. You'll find the lazy AI comment in every article's top first or second comment now. Don't bother justifying yourself, keep it up and keep writing.

1h agoHN ↗

Try reading Debt : the first 5000 years

Money is about trust, not about the problems of bartering

4h agoHN ↗

Your attitude is why even short videos shared on social media today begin with a few seconds showing the "payoff" of the video.

The risk of having your time wasted is an inherent part of consuming creative works; it makes things more enjoyable when the gamble pays off (dopamine is triggered via reward prediction error). A life where you only consume media with accurately predicted positive utility would be devoid of joy.

So I'd say if you want to know the narrative, what it wants to tell you, and why, simply read it. Take the gamble that it may suck, you'll enjoy it more if it doesn't.

But also, to avoid being a jerk: it's a piece that attempts to explain the modern global economic system (and the implications of USD being the global reserve currency specifically) from first principles using simple prose, where each "chapter" introduces a new layer of complexity.

3h agoHN ↗

Here we go again. Commenter doesn't read an article because it doesn't fit their style. Immediately bad-mouths it as AI.

Edit: typo

6h agoHN ↗

The villagers are tired of bartering

Come on… It's been known for more than a century that bartering has never been the default mean of exchange among humans, can we kill this myth eventually?!

5h agoHN ↗

This is obviously not an attempt at anything remotely resembling documentary history. It’s more of a just so story explaining what problem each step solved.

Unless of course one thinks that smooth gray stones from a riverbed two miles away reflects some historically significant point in money’s evolution.

4h agoHN ↗

I'm not going to explain David Graeber's Debt to you, but yes, this exact 18th century fantasy of the emergence of money in caveman times contains the same kind of misunderstandings that also leads to most people having an incredibly misguided view of how the contemporary global financial system operates.

4h agoHN ↗

I certainly don't think anything like this actually happened. And the linked article doesn't really do so either. I do think it can be a useful illustration of what problem each technology solves.

In another thread you talk about how the internet really is a series of tubes. We all know that "tubes" can be a useful analogy for understanding certain things about circuits and things built upon them. But we also don't think that tubes are more than a very basic analogy. Tubes don't really do packet switching.

3h agoHN ↗

The problem is the story is wrong, and that leads to misunderstandings of what money is and how economic institutions arose in fact vs mythology.

For starters, debt records came before money basically everywhere we have evidence for the invention of money.

i would very strongly suggest reading David Graeber. It completely revolutionized my understanding of how human social and economic institutions emerge and evolve in actual fact vs imagined myth.

We can just tell the real story, it's far more interesting and useful than the myth.

3h agoHN ↗

You are arguing a point I didn’t make.

2h agoHN ↗

No, what I and the other commenter are saying is you don't understand why the article is misleading because you don't know the actual scholarly knowledge here.

In your other comment you use wording along the lines of "still useful to show what problem each technology solved" but the part you're missing is the explanations are largely wrong, not just in the sense of not telling actual history but you will come alway with mistaken conclusions because the imagined/example history is fundamentally wrong.

So, consider if you're getting this from multiple people, perhaps you're missing something on the topic.

1h agoHN ↗

There are two commenting critics. So "multiple" is true, I suppose, but only quite weakly so. And there are more than 4x that many upvotes on the top-level comment. So I don't think it is as simple as "everyone is saying you are wrong."

5h agoHN ↗

Not only bartering has never been the default mean of exchange, but also the idea that money were created to optimize the trading process is also wrong.

For an item to become currency in a society, it must already be something people value independently of its use as money, and people must expect others to accept it as well. Say the villagers live near the sea and find some beautiful shiny stones that everyone wants. Those stones can then become currency.

A good example of this is tobacco in colonial America. It came to be used as currency because it was already widely traded and valued.

21m agoHN ↗

So a systems using money is just barter system where one commodity is overwhelmingly involved?

6h agoHN ↗

The part where the bat wielding despot required payment using the money of his issue was left out.

1h agoHN ↗

Well we wouldn’t want people to lose trust in the black money, right?

4h agoHN ↗

As someone who works at a financial institution, this is a really refreshing and concise breakdown of money and monetary systems. I think the most important thing that people should realise from reading this is that none of the things we have in our monetary systems were dreamed up for no reason, each solves a clear problem, and often was found by multiple independent groups of people at different times. I absolutely love the fact that it's essentially just layers of trust, analogous to a certificate authority or a domain name system.

And, of course, that the top level of trust is a bit arbitrary, and that "black money", of course the US Dollar, isn't worth more than trust in the US government.

4h agoHN ↗

The only problem of money is inflation. The ability of one single entity to print money at will, stealing from everybody else without them noticing is one of the greatest con jobs in the history of mankind (and we all know who has the master printer in the world)

Money is a beautiful instrument for trading and free markets, the only way for two entities to peacefully exchange goods. Inflate that money supply and you are silently stealing from the pockets of those who trust that instrument

2h agoHN ↗

The only problem of money is inflation.

Counterfeiting enters the chat.

2h agoHN ↗

and, already well established is share rehypothication.

1h agoHN ↗

Inflation was a problem long before fiat money. It affected the Roman Empire whenever large amounts of gold were added to the money supply through conquests - in fact they understood this at some level because they usually kept it in the temple of Zeus, but in economic downturns they would raid this piggybank.

Another historical example is hyperinflation in Spain caused by the huge influx of silver from their central and South American conquests.

3h agoHN ↗

The crypto bros are gonna have an aneurysm reading this

3h agoHN ↗

How do you describe money without explaining taxes? There is no money without taxation happening.

3h agoHN ↗

The villager parable is too egalitarian. That's not really how it worked.

For most of history, peasants were sustenance farmers, meaning they grew their own food and if the harvest was bad, they could starve. For them, there was no such thing as insurance and they really needed ways to reduce risk. For example, they'd feast their neighbors so that when times were hard, the neighbors would hopefully help them out in turn. Investing in close-knit relationships isn't like barter - it's more like informal credit. Kinship networks still work something like this today.

And this meant they didn't really need money. Social obligations were everything.

But how do people who aren't peasants themselves get food? By extracting rents and taxes, in return for protection and certain services, perhaps plowing fields. Local "big men" might take payment in kind, but for a more organized government, they'd collect taxes using money, which gave the peasants incentives to grow and sell food for money.

So villages would monetize or demonetize depending on the state of nearby governments. A monetized society allows people who aren't farmers to buy food. It allows cities to exist. Therefore, civilization was built on military force, taxes, and rent extracted from peasants, who were the basis of a mostly agricultural economy.

Be glad our civilization isn't built on sustenance farming anymore.

2h agoHN ↗

Yes. This could be subtitled, "A rational financial system design process: how and why to fake it."

3h agoHN ↗

What article is missing is the (hierarchy of) permission.

Who can create money, who can access it, who can change the rules, who can freeze or censor transactions or even weaponize whole financial system?

What I dislike about fiat is that inflation is treated as a (wanted) feature while it is a cost paid by plebs via Cantillon effect.

All Govs keep rolling debt burden being paid with more debt.

Paper backed by paper and/or trust into goverments only. History and significant part of the world shows that this trust is being failed too often.

How sustainable current system is?

3h agoHN ↗

When I started to understand how money works, it started to feel like everything I've been raised to believe was a lie down to the foundational principles.

Even Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" also fell apart when I came across Grey's Law "Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

The complexity is extreme and more intricate than any person could have designed. Clearly, it evolved over long periods of time to get to this point. It's worse than a "conspiracy" because a conspiracy requires collaborative intent and a shared understanding. With this system, participants have convergent intent but very little to no shared understanding (as essentially none is required).

In terms of outcomes, the system functions in much the same way as a conspiracy, but without any of the self-restraint mechanisms which might otherwise limit the group's actions (as would come naturally if each member had full awareness of what the group was doing)... Which in this case, disturbingly, spans the entire planet and all human affairs.

The first step to solving a problem is understanding that the problem exists. This makes this problem particularly difficult to solve because it has power over the collective human minds which created and uphold it. It can replace any dissident with a compatible 'attention head' within its neural net.

2h agoHN ↗

What things that you thought were true did you discover were lies?

2h agoHN ↗

Wow, what a fantastic blog post!

While there are some necessary simplifications, I couldn't find a single mistake on a first pass.

Anyone who wants to understand current monetary systems should read it.

Substituting "stones" for gold is a brilliant stroke of the pen. It will surely be helpful to any readers who are hung up on gold.

Thank you for writing this and sharing it on HN.

2h agoHN ↗

For a (I am sure seriously simplified) history of money, I really enjoyed Jacob Goldstein’s “Money: The True Story of a Made Up Thing.”

1h agoHN ↗

There may be some value in this, but it is fundamentally wrong from first to last. First: There never was a great age of barter, you needed to have money before you had a lot of specialization. The idea that you could have brewers trying to pay for everything in beer doesn't resemble anything that did or could have happened. Last: Fiat money wasn't something people voluntarily accepted, it's something governments forced on people. Governments required people to pay taxes in fiat money, governments required people to accept fiat money as payments for debts, governments forced people to "sell" their gold.

57m agoHN ↗

Your presentation about fiat money is more biased than anything presented in the article.

Take the UK. They only left the gold standard due to ww1. But they broadly stopped accepting anything but governmental currency in the 1400s for tax payment.

It turns out money is more useful than commodities even when it’s a 1:1 relationship and even with that 1:1 relationship governments want their currency to have official legitimacy.

52m agoHN ↗

The OP never claimed that this is history. The purpose of the story is to explain how things work. Please don't attack a strawman.

46m agoHN ↗

Wonderful. I'd be curious to read a spinoff Just-So story about how "ledgers" and "double-entry accounting" came to be. Similarly about stocks and bonds, derivatives and hedge funds.

42m agoHN ↗

This is a really useful taxonomy and illustrative stories... But these stories imply an ordering which is neither essential nor factual in most cases! Check out Graber's "Debt: The first 5000 Years" for some really interesting analysis, including how debt almost always preceded hard currency in early societies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5,000_Years

3m agoHN ↗

The two parties just record the details of the trade on a piece of paper and settle up later....

I think this "paper" would precede the use of stones. When the villagers are tired of bartering, they are not going to magically settle on the use of these stones as value. Because even before that, when the "dairy farmer wants to buy corn, even when he does not have milk to trade" the corn farmer is going to give corn in exchange of a declaration (IOU) from dairy farmer that anyone who is in possession of that IOU is entitled to 5 liters of milk (or what ever the corn was worth to the dairy farmer at that point) from him.

New money has entered the system at that point. Because now the corn farmer can use that IOU to barter stuff, either giving corn (produced by himself) or by giving this IOU from dairy farmer (if the other person is interested in accepting milk)