In fact, in some Canadian provinces, titles in computing such as “software engineer,” “computer engineer,” and others containing “engineer” are (in principle) reserved for people licensed as engineers by the provincial engineering regulator.
A most rational stance. One we should enforce here in the US.
Edit: Yes, I'm arguing that Software Engineer should be a licensed profession, but programmer shouldn't, and would be a fine substitution in the cases where you didn't need rigor.
--
If I were an engineer, there's no way I would trust any interface to a control system for a water purification plant that connected to the internet and allowed for ingress of control. Just as an example.
The OPM hack of 2015[1] is the worst case, in terms of national security, that clearly proves no Engineers were involved in the design of their computer system. Ingress of control should be absolutely prohibited, and it wasn't. I don't know why that database was ever put into a computer, instead of filing cabinets in a vault, nor why it was ever connected to any other system, and not completely air-gapped in said vault, with manual controlled exfiltration of data upon request.
The difference is for others than "engineers" (software developers), where there is an expectation of certain quality when they hear someone call themselves "engineer". Just like the title "doctor" carries a certain expectation.
"Doctor" is a funny one because physicians originally latched onto the term to try and give themselves the credibility where they previously had none. Its use in medicine is in a lot of ways similar to the software situation.
So what about like "mechanical engineers" or "process engineers" or "hardware engineer" or "biomedical engineers" etc?
I don't know why that database was ever put into a computer, instead of filing cabinets in a vault, nor why it was ever connected to any other system, and not completely air-gapped in said vault, with manual controlled exfiltration of data upon request.
I suspect this is not because of the fake engineers but rather because other forces, e.g. management wanted more efficiency and security was the last item on the list. I don't see how changing job titles would change anything here
I think the OP was talking about licensing and regulation. Licensed engineers have more power to push back on management. It’s not perfect but giving a licensed engineer the legal authority to say “No this isn’t safe. I won’t sign off on it.” goes a long way in the civil engineering world.
Some mechanical engineers are "professional engineers". That title is a legal liability for messing up. While most of the work designing a skyscraper belongs to any civil engineer, it won't be built until a professional engineer puts his legal mark on it being safe. In turn a professional engineer has the power and legal responsibility to tell management no and he will win against all their pressure. (though sometimes that means the company builds nothing and goes out of business forcing him to find a new job)
FYI: Mechanical and hardware engineers, in the appropriate language of the country, are already protected engineering titles in a lot of European countries.
Calling yourself a „dipl. Ing. <X>“ would be a crime if you don’t possess the appropriate degree.
Yes, but at least in Germany the "Dipl." makes the difference. I think it'd be OK to call yourself a "Software Engineer" without a degree and this is what many people do.
There's internet-connected industrial control panels online where you can just connect to them on your browser or some tool and start clicking buttons.
it's probably just convenient because there's no auth or VPNs required. yippee!
SCADA (Supervisory control and data acquisition) goes back to the 50s with, yes, remote access. Security has never been a design factor (after all, how many people had mainframes in the 50s?).
I'm glad that Alberta has the common sense to allow the term 'Software Engineer' so that the engineer societies can't go around suing people like crazy.
I notice that software-related professions tend be named after traditionally male-dominated fields, such as "software engineer" or "software architect" or even the "rock star programmer".
Which is strange since the original "computers" were predominately women[0] and I find writing software has much in common with activities that were historically at least coed, such as creating recipes or sewing patterns.
Yet we never hear of "software chefs" or "software tailors". Given how little many titular heads of software companies understand their product, "software nanny" would also be applicable.
Maybe it's cultural or geographic, but both "chefs" and "tailors" is similarly male dominated here (Serbia in Europe). Out of all the professions you bring up, architects are actually pretty evenly split here.
Obviously, what matters is where the term was coined, but I'd certainly suspect it has nothing to do with any gender bias and is instead about parallels to civil construction: architects design, engineers make it work and possible for builders to build. If anything, with LLMs, software engineers more closely match up to construction (as engineers rarely lay a single brick).
I think only some software work is engineering and if I call myself a software engineer (in regard to my employment), it’s because it’s actually “a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software”. And not just paying lip service. Otherwise, I’m something else with or even without the word software in the title (even if I work with software). Outside of work, I inherently consider myself a software engine but if work requires it, I have no problems treating it as less.
Genuinely curious, what’s examples of engineering classes you had that the CompSci did not in those +2 years? Are you talking about a 3 year CompSci (bachelor level) vs a 5 year eng degree?
Ugh. It's called engineering because in the beginning each university built or bought one computer. That machine was either owned by the mathematics department or the electrical engineering department (for hopefully obvious reasons). Fast forward a few decades and we have the twin disciplines of Computer Science and Software Engineering.
~13 years ago I interviewed at a friend's job. They were in desperate need of discipline regarding SCM, release management, software architecture, etc. as it was largely my one friend doing everything bespoke by the seat of his pants. I used the term "software engineer" during the interview and his boss immediately decided he didn't like me because being an engineer requires licensing like a doctor and how dare I call myself that because I don't engineer and I couldn't because there was no engine for me to even be near to engineer because you have to go to school and take a very hard test to learn how to ethically knee an engine et cetera et cetera. I didn't help my case when I pointed out that a guy who wears overalls and drives trains is also an engineer and that he probably didn't graduate from some random college in Pennsyltucky either like my interviewer was conspicuously proud of having done.
Thankfully I didn't get that job and my life trajectory continued upward. Unfortunately for that team they needed exactly what their manager was critical of - some semblance of rigor around the software they built. Of course I would indeed prefer that people who build airplanes and bridges are held to a high standard for doing their job but a person building what is essentially a glorified spreadsheet in app form might not consistently need the same.
Author begins by describing the complexity crisis that folks tried to address at 1968 NATO SEC but then talks about engineering as a problem-solving effort involving calculations and caches.
Is it a surprise the complexity crisis continues? Dependencies rage out of control in modern systems, creating all sorts of havoc, including security issues. The academy seems to have little interest in this.
For the past couple of months, I've been doing a deep dive into engineering and engineering philosophy, and I have some thoughts about this article.
The biggest thing I noticed was that, even though there was an acknowledgment of the lack of a singular definition of engineering, the definition used throughout was tied to a linear model of innovation. I've been able to trace this thinking to the 1920s, with a growth in popularity in the 1940s and 1950s. A prime example is Vannevar Bush's Science: The Endless Frontier. Although the report had some good outcomes, like leading to the establishment of the National Science Foundation, Bush's own autobiography acknowledged that this model was a disservice to engineers and engineering, as it led to many engineering accomplishments being touted as scientific achievements and scientists getting credit for the work of engineers in popular literature and the press.
There aren't too many other views of engineering out there. A handful of contemporary authors keep coming up: Florman, Vincenti, Ferguson, Koen, and Petroski. Most other things I've read tend to cite one or more of these authors and continue to build upon their foundations.
Picking up any one of the other perspectives on engineering would let you make another connection to the 1968 NATO conference. There were really three camps that offered definitions about what software engineering should be. People like Dijkstra, Hoare, Naur, and Wirth focused on applying mathematics and computer science and on theory building. McIlroy, Bauer, and Bemer looked at how software development could learn from industrial engineering and mass production. David and Ross emphasized practical problem solving. By the 1969 conference, the practical problem-solving piece had dropped out of focus, even though this is very closely related to how other engineering philosophers looked at engineering.
Another aspect from some of the engineering philosophers is the craft roots of engineering. This also tends to disprove the linear model of innovation. Engineering existed well before modern science, and there are several cases of engineering development without a robust scientific understanding of the principles that enable it. Modern science became a tool in the toolbox of modern engineers, but it's not a precursor to engineering. The craft roots have been there all along and were part of engineering education up into the early 1900s. This can tie back into Agile Software Development and the software craftsmanship movement of the 1990s and early 2000s.
The paragraph about application programming being removed from the debates in the 1960s misses a key point. In the 1960s, "software" was shorthand for "systems software", or the stuff provided by computer manufacturers to allow people to make their computers do stuff. Application programs were really considered software until at least the 1970s. It's a bit nuanced, but there's a reason for excluding this group of people: it was seen as a different thing entirely.
Finally, no mention of Margaret Hamilton. Failing to even mention Hamilton and her use of software engineering as an aspiration to elevate programmers to the same status as the other engineering disciplines on the Apollo program misses a huge moment in the development of the idea of software engineering.
"Software engineering" is the corporate aspect concerned with the "right" way to do stuff, often picking inadequate analogies from physical manufacturing and traditional engineering. It builds the ungainly, monolith dinosaurs and the technical debt. It is OOP, enterprise Java, MFC, "agile methodologies" and "agentic workflows".
"Programming" is the creative tinkering aspect where you start from scratch and approach a problem from a new light. This is how Unix was born. It is the 1000-line program that is composable, fun to read and write and will last a long time.
A most rational stance. One we should enforce here in the US.
Edit: Yes, I'm arguing that Software Engineer should be a licensed profession, but programmer shouldn't, and would be a fine substitution in the cases where you didn't need rigor.
--
If I were an engineer, there's no way I would trust any interface to a control system for a water purification plant that connected to the internet and allowed for ingress of control. Just as an example.
The OPM hack of 2015[1] is the worst case, in terms of national security, that clearly proves no Engineers were involved in the design of their computer system. Ingress of control should be absolutely prohibited, and it wasn't. I don't know why that database was ever put into a computer, instead of filing cabinets in a vault, nor why it was ever connected to any other system, and not completely air-gapped in said vault, with manual controlled exfiltration of data upon request.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Office_of_Personnel_Manag...
So instance of SWE1 we become SWD1. I don't see the difference.
The difference is for others than "engineers" (software developers), where there is an expectation of certain quality when they hear someone call themselves "engineer". Just like the title "doctor" carries a certain expectation.
"Doctor" is a funny one because physicians originally latched onto the term to try and give themselves the credibility where they previously had none. Its use in medicine is in a lot of ways similar to the software situation.
Barber-surgeon doesn't have the same vibe, I suppose.
So language police.
It seems reasonable to want licensure on the belief that it raises quality.
It seems unreasonable to expect people to conform to your language preferences.
So what about like "mechanical engineers" or "process engineers" or "hardware engineer" or "biomedical engineers" etc?
I suspect this is not because of the fake engineers but rather because other forces, e.g. management wanted more efficiency and security was the last item on the list. I don't see how changing job titles would change anything here
I think the OP was talking about licensing and regulation. Licensed engineers have more power to push back on management. It’s not perfect but giving a licensed engineer the legal authority to say “No this isn’t safe. I won’t sign off on it.” goes a long way in the civil engineering world.
Some mechanical engineers are "professional engineers". That title is a legal liability for messing up. While most of the work designing a skyscraper belongs to any civil engineer, it won't be built until a professional engineer puts his legal mark on it being safe. In turn a professional engineer has the power and legal responsibility to tell management no and he will win against all their pressure. (though sometimes that means the company builds nothing and goes out of business forcing him to find a new job)
FYI: Mechanical and hardware engineers, in the appropriate language of the country, are already protected engineering titles in a lot of European countries.
Calling yourself a „dipl. Ing. <X>“ would be a crime if you don’t possess the appropriate degree.
Yes, but at least in Germany the "Dipl." makes the difference. I think it'd be OK to call yourself a "Software Engineer" without a degree and this is what many people do.
The infrastructure-getting-hacked thing is wild to me! Something went very wrong early in the design process!
There's internet-connected industrial control panels online where you can just connect to them on your browser or some tool and start clicking buttons.
it's probably just convenient because there's no auth or VPNs required. yippee!
SCADA (Supervisory control and data acquisition) goes back to the 50s with, yes, remote access. Security has never been a design factor (after all, how many people had mainframes in the 50s?).
So yes, from very early in the design process.
This seems more like an argument for requiring licensure and not an argument for using the term engineer or not
oi, you got a licence for that keyboard?
American employment licencing needs urgent review, and fewer licenced professions, not more.
I'm glad that Alberta has the common sense to allow the term 'Software Engineer' so that the engineer societies can't go around suing people like crazy.
YES PLEASE, WHERE DO I SIGN.
[delayed]
Hillel Wayne did a series of interviews with people who are considered "proper" engineers, which you can read here:
https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/
the tl;dr is that for the most part, modern software development is very similar to engineering
I notice that software-related professions tend be named after traditionally male-dominated fields, such as "software engineer" or "software architect" or even the "rock star programmer".
Which is strange since the original "computers" were predominately women[0] and I find writing software has much in common with activities that were historically at least coed, such as creating recipes or sewing patterns.
Yet we never hear of "software chefs" or "software tailors". Given how little many titular heads of software companies understand their product, "software nanny" would also be applicable.
[0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/history-human-...
Maybe it's cultural or geographic, but both "chefs" and "tailors" is similarly male dominated here (Serbia in Europe). Out of all the professions you bring up, architects are actually pretty evenly split here.
Obviously, what matters is where the term was coined, but I'd certainly suspect it has nothing to do with any gender bias and is instead about parallels to civil construction: architects design, engineers make it work and possible for builders to build. If anything, with LLMs, software engineers more closely match up to construction (as engineers rarely lay a single brick).
I think only some software work is engineering and if I call myself a software engineer (in regard to my employment), it’s because it’s actually “a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software”. And not just paying lip service. Otherwise, I’m something else with or even without the word software in the title (even if I work with software). Outside of work, I inherently consider myself a software engine but if work requires it, I have no problems treating it as less.
Using the engineering design process makes it engineering.
My degree is Software Engineering, and is fully accredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers.
It was two years longer than computer science, and all of those extra courses were with the “mainstream” Engineers.
Can you elaborate on the extra courses? What are America's developers missing (I imagine ethics is glaringly missed)?
Has the engineering enhancement been beneficial in your work?
Genuinely curious, what’s examples of engineering classes you had that the CompSci did not in those +2 years? Are you talking about a 3 year CompSci (bachelor level) vs a 5 year eng degree?
Ugh. It's called engineering because in the beginning each university built or bought one computer. That machine was either owned by the mathematics department or the electrical engineering department (for hopefully obvious reasons). Fast forward a few decades and we have the twin disciplines of Computer Science and Software Engineering.
~13 years ago I interviewed at a friend's job. They were in desperate need of discipline regarding SCM, release management, software architecture, etc. as it was largely my one friend doing everything bespoke by the seat of his pants. I used the term "software engineer" during the interview and his boss immediately decided he didn't like me because being an engineer requires licensing like a doctor and how dare I call myself that because I don't engineer and I couldn't because there was no engine for me to even be near to engineer because you have to go to school and take a very hard test to learn how to ethically knee an engine et cetera et cetera. I didn't help my case when I pointed out that a guy who wears overalls and drives trains is also an engineer and that he probably didn't graduate from some random college in Pennsyltucky either like my interviewer was conspicuously proud of having done.
Thankfully I didn't get that job and my life trajectory continued upward. Unfortunately for that team they needed exactly what their manager was critical of - some semblance of rigor around the software they built. Of course I would indeed prefer that people who build airplanes and bridges are held to a high standard for doing their job but a person building what is essentially a glorified spreadsheet in app form might not consistently need the same.
What makes software development engineering
Wishful thinking and brand inflation. Same thing that makes machine learning artificial intelligence.
Author begins by describing the complexity crisis that folks tried to address at 1968 NATO SEC but then talks about engineering as a problem-solving effort involving calculations and caches.
Is it a surprise the complexity crisis continues? Dependencies rage out of control in modern systems, creating all sorts of havoc, including security issues. The academy seems to have little interest in this.
For the past couple of months, I've been doing a deep dive into engineering and engineering philosophy, and I have some thoughts about this article.
The biggest thing I noticed was that, even though there was an acknowledgment of the lack of a singular definition of engineering, the definition used throughout was tied to a linear model of innovation. I've been able to trace this thinking to the 1920s, with a growth in popularity in the 1940s and 1950s. A prime example is Vannevar Bush's Science: The Endless Frontier. Although the report had some good outcomes, like leading to the establishment of the National Science Foundation, Bush's own autobiography acknowledged that this model was a disservice to engineers and engineering, as it led to many engineering accomplishments being touted as scientific achievements and scientists getting credit for the work of engineers in popular literature and the press.
There aren't too many other views of engineering out there. A handful of contemporary authors keep coming up: Florman, Vincenti, Ferguson, Koen, and Petroski. Most other things I've read tend to cite one or more of these authors and continue to build upon their foundations.
Picking up any one of the other perspectives on engineering would let you make another connection to the 1968 NATO conference. There were really three camps that offered definitions about what software engineering should be. People like Dijkstra, Hoare, Naur, and Wirth focused on applying mathematics and computer science and on theory building. McIlroy, Bauer, and Bemer looked at how software development could learn from industrial engineering and mass production. David and Ross emphasized practical problem solving. By the 1969 conference, the practical problem-solving piece had dropped out of focus, even though this is very closely related to how other engineering philosophers looked at engineering.
Another aspect from some of the engineering philosophers is the craft roots of engineering. This also tends to disprove the linear model of innovation. Engineering existed well before modern science, and there are several cases of engineering development without a robust scientific understanding of the principles that enable it. Modern science became a tool in the toolbox of modern engineers, but it's not a precursor to engineering. The craft roots have been there all along and were part of engineering education up into the early 1900s. This can tie back into Agile Software Development and the software craftsmanship movement of the 1990s and early 2000s.
The paragraph about application programming being removed from the debates in the 1960s misses a key point. In the 1960s, "software" was shorthand for "systems software", or the stuff provided by computer manufacturers to allow people to make their computers do stuff. Application programs were really considered software until at least the 1970s. It's a bit nuanced, but there's a reason for excluding this group of people: it was seen as a different thing entirely.
Finally, no mention of Margaret Hamilton. Failing to even mention Hamilton and her use of software engineering as an aspiration to elevate programmers to the same status as the other engineering disciplines on the Apollo program misses a huge moment in the development of the idea of software engineering.
Did you mean "were not"?
"Software engineering" is the corporate aspect concerned with the "right" way to do stuff, often picking inadequate analogies from physical manufacturing and traditional engineering. It builds the ungainly, monolith dinosaurs and the technical debt. It is OOP, enterprise Java, MFC, "agile methodologies" and "agentic workflows".
"Programming" is the creative tinkering aspect where you start from scratch and approach a problem from a new light. This is how Unix was born. It is the 1000-line program that is composable, fun to read and write and will last a long time.