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The U.S. government tried to rank colleges in 1911

62 pointsby 12y agovox.com
34 comments
12y agoHN ↗

The current Obama proposal has problems, the suggested metrics (six-year graduation rate, tuition cost and employment after graduation) are problematic and too easily gamed.

Salaries are the biggest expense at a university, you can easily cut those by shifting to more adjuncts. With the shape the academic labour market is in, that is easily done. Quality of instruction drops, but the students don't mind, they are there for credentials, not for an education. What does suffer is the idea of a university.

Graduation rate is really problematic. You can fix that by watering down standards, again the students don't mind, it's more A's for everyone, they are there for credentials, but what you would really like to do is to admit more students and weed those out that can't hack it in their first year, before they are welded to the wrong career track.

As for employment after graduation, look no further than third-tier law schools with their legal clinics that employ their graduates. Such places need to be shut down today.

12y agoHN ↗

Instructors are not really that large of a budget item at collages. Administrative overhead has continued to grow due to a wide range of factors including such things as the new demand for IT at all schools.

12y agoHN ↗

Administrative overhead is growing, but you can't cut there - you need functional infrastructure. So you cut where you can, and that is at the teaching end.

By the way, part of the growing infrastructure is because universities are trying to attract non-traditional students, such as first-generation students, minorities and non-Western students. You can drop a middle-class US guy into a US university, and he will do just fine. But a minority student may need tutoring (because his high school plainly sucked), someone from China will need help with cultural adjustment, and a first-generation student may not even know how to study (his family is of no help). All this is motivated by the need for more bodies paying tuition.

12y agoHN ↗

Are you sure that admin overhead couldn't be cut? Does the president really need to make 7 figures?

12y agoHN ↗

University presidents are fundraisers and marketeers. I suspect the talent pool is small, there are not that many people with good connections to donors and proven ability to attract outside money. And the need for external funds is rising.

Here is a particularly lurid example, but the idea is the same everywhere: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/nyregion/a-quick-descent-f...

12y agoHN ↗

Wow...reading that story and seeing that picture, I think I might have gambled on the same table as her on blackjack once about 6-7 years ago, either in Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods (I forget). That is chilling.

12y agoHN ↗

Administrative overhead is growing, but you can't cut there - you need functional infrastructure.

A college needs gardeners, programmers, network admins and secretaries; does it need Vice Presidents of Student Diversity and football coaches?

12y agoHN ↗

Or perhaps colleges simply need to stop admitting students without adequate preparation in the name of "diversity". I'm also uncertain what "diversity" has to do with "children of the rich". Maybe you could explain?

According to the article you link to, the "diverse" students have SAT scores 200 pts lower than average and perform even worse than that SAT gap would predict. It seems a bit unfair to charge students who study for exams extra money simply to pay for extra help to those who don't (e.g., "Vanessa" in the article you link to).

12y agoHN ↗

Here is the relevant statistic:

If you compare college students with the same standardized-test scores who come from different family backgrounds, you find that their educational outcomes reflect their parents’ income, not their test scores. Take students like Vanessa, who do moderately well on standardized tests — scoring between 1,000 and 1,200 out of 1,600 on the SAT. If those students come from families in the top-income quartile, they have a 2 in 3 chance of graduating with a four-year degree. If they come from families in the bottom quartile, they have just a 1 in 6 chance of making it to graduation.

We're talking about students with similar SAT scores displaying dramatically different graduation outcomes based on parental income. The function of college, especially state colleges, isn't to reward people for being on the ball earlier in life, especially considering how much that has to do with parental education and income. It's to educate the populace, and enable upward mobility within society. It's penny-wise and pound-foolish to not spend money helping lower-income students graduate at the same rate as higher-income students with similar SAT scores. Every low-income student with above-average SAT scores that doesn't graduate college is a huge missed opportunity for the state to put a capable and educated person into the workforce.

12y agoHN ↗

Your comment is about football but your links discuss subsidies on entire athletic programs. It is well known that more popular sports offset expenses for less popular ones (especially those satisfying title IX) and many times the schools have to subsidize even further. I think you are confusing the expense/revenue ratio of college football with college athletic programs as a whole.

12y agoHN ↗

You can cut a lot of fat from University administrative budgets. Just as an example outsource email. There are plenty of reasons this does not happen, but mostly it's a question of politics not cost savings.

12y agoHN ↗

A lot of universities already do outsource email. Some University of California campuses use Google, for example. The big growth in administrative expense isn't really the IT department, though, but more on the high end, the vast array of Deans and Associate Deans and Office of the Provost, with their staff and consultants and travel and such.

12y agoHN ↗

you need functional infrastructure. So you cut where you can, and that is at the teaching end.

what is the point of the infrastructure if there is no one to teach?

12y agoHN ↗

The obvious solution here is to separate education from credentialing. Have the government create uniform credentialing standards and allow anyone to attempt to achieve them for a small fee - e.g., $250 to take the exam for "US Govt. English B.A.".

Quality of instruction drops...

How do you know this?

What does suffer is the idea of a university.

Why should anyone (besides people looking to become non-adjunct professors) care?

12y agoHN ↗

There are already accreditation groups such as ABET that review and score programs - http://www.abet.org/about-abet/ There's absolutely no reason to get the government into a system that already works.

12y agoHN ↗

The government is already involved in determining which groups are allowed to accredit colleges. Those accreditation groups tend to require things that prevent a college from simply selling the credential without the education.

The fact that the system already "works" does not mean it cannot be improved.

Also, if you want to argue that credentials and education should NOT be separated, should we merge them in cases where they are currently separated? E.g., should stock brokers be required to go to Series 7 school before taking the Series 7 exam? If not, why not?

12y agoHN ↗

I agree. Although ABET does not score, you are either accredited or not.

12y agoHN ↗

I'm not sure hiring more adjuncts would hurt the quality of (undergraduate) teaching. In my own experience adjuncts were far more dedicated to teaching than tenured professors who focus on their research without caring how low their teaching ratings sink.

12y agoHN ↗

This may be superficially true, but the long-term health of the institution and the educational system are not served. Hiring underpaid adjuncts as teaching labor may allow for some good classes--either through the adjuncts' idealism or their hunger to keep their job--but it's only a sort of local maximum. Those good adjuncts came up through a system which valued teaching & knowledge. It's not clear the succeeding adjunct-taught generations will maintain this faith in their fields.

See the case study of Schlitz in the 70s (e.g. http://www.beerbusinessunplugged.com/?p=130 for a short version): desperate businesspeople go for short term gains by cannibalizing their traditional ways of making things.

12y agoHN ↗

Salaries are the biggest expense at a university, you can easily cut those by shifting to more adjuncts. With the shape the academic labour market is in, that is easily done. Quality of instruction drops, but the students don't mind, they are there for credentials, not for an education. (Emphasis not in original)

Citation needed. I can see why academics would like me to believe that but whether it's true or not is an empirical question, not one that's immediately obvious on its face.

12y agoHN ↗

Doesn't this already exist, albeit in a private capacity, with things like the US News rankings?

12y agoHN ↗

The USNWR rankings blow. They incentivize a lot of bad behavior. E.g. for law schools, they reward inefficiency (by counting expenditures per student positively towards the score.) Also, major aspects of the USNWR rankings is what academics think of each others' institutions, which is utterly irrelevant.

12y agoHN ↗

The US News rankings have a lot of factors which can easily be gamed and/or probably aren't relevant to ranking an institution based on quality. One that comes to mind is including the "Easiness" factor from RateMyProfessor as a positive metric (easier schools are ranked more highly).

On a more philosophical level, having a private 3rd party control the decisions of our college-bound youth could become problematic. How likely is it that the US News rankings may have some sort of bias, anything from an analyst's alma mater being ranked higher to quid pro quo bribery? Hopefully, a public institution would be more robust in the face of these biases.

12y agoHN ↗

Whenever there are humans involved, there will be biases. Making it a government entity instead of a private entity doesn't change that. People are people.

12y agoHN ↗

There always seems to be a deep prevalence to think that the government is a purely objective, magic entity with no agenda or bias, rather than consisting of people, each with their own agenda and bias, like everyone else (and worse, consisting of parties that create strong group biases and agendas).

Even if you assumed the government perfectly represented the people, it would possess a very blatant agenda and bias, in the form of representing said people and what they vote in favor of.

I'd argue governments as political entities - keeping in mind what it takes to win in politics - are far more likely to hold extreme biases and agendas.

Any government system of reviewing universities will possess tremendous bias toward whatever people are in power that oversee such reviews. They will obviously rate universities that meet their favored criteria higher, matching up with their world-views about education / societal issues / etc.

12y agoHN ↗

The statement in the article is that "colleges in the top tier, perhaps unsurprisingly, didn't complain." Meanwhile, colleges with lower rankings complained about them so much that the President issued an executive order prohibiting further publication of the ratings. I'm not worried about this today. There should be data-gathering along various dimensions showing what the trade-offs are of attending one or another college. A good current effort in that direction is the foundation-funded nonprofit website College Results,[1] which aggregates data that colleges are already required to report to the federal government (which is one of the biggest funders of all aspects of higher education in the United States) and presents the data in a user-friendly format. I frequently recommend the College Results website to parents whose children are trying to decide what college to attend. Figure out what trade-off dimensions are meaningful to you, and get the best information you can about how colleges differ along each dimension. College is supposedly very consequential for your future. It is certainly very expensive for some people. Find out more before committing to one or another college.

[1] http://www.collegeresults.org/

12y agoHN ↗

The method in the article, i.e. how well one is prepared for graduate school, IS probably the best method. It really boils down to how much you know given your GPA. Of course maybe I'm biased since my school, KU, was 1st tier.