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I get why the banks are not happy, but I can tell them that I am not going to use Chase Wallet, Bank of America Wallet, Citi Wallet...just pay the fee and be thankful for the reduced payment friction, which they invariably make money from. PS: Nobody is going to use Paze (yet another half baked wallet), other than to collect the free $10 to sign up for it.
Somewhat related, even Walmart relented and now supports Apple Pay/Contactless. Every big merchant has now relented (Kroger, Home Depot, Walmart).
Walmart only relented because they finally broke through the final missing link of the contactless issue. They got customers conned into giving their phone numbers at checkout, just like it's the grocery store.
Cards get linked to accounts automatically behind the scenes based on first6/last4 card number tracking, then everyone else self-selects to punch their phone number on the screen.
Same reason Walmart Radio is such gruesome auditory cancer, it's part of the data collection and advertising vehicle.
That could be part of the reason, but also I think insisting on chip all this time just really slows down a store that doesn't really spend on cashiering all that much. Tap to pay can shave off a few seconds on every transaction (ever been behind someone in the store who finally pulls out their wallet, finds the business end of their card, inserts it, waits 20 seconds...).
Millions of transactions a day, over thousands of stores, it can make a huge difference in time saved.
This is even worse now that tap to pay has proliferated. Customers who are not Walmart regulars (and some that are) will wave their credit card, phone, or watch over the terminal and wonder why it’s not working.
Cashier must explain: No tap. Best case is the customer shrugs and inserts card. Bad case is the customer is confused or argues about it. Horrible case is that the customer must fish through his belongings for a credit card or cash and takes minutes to realize he has neither.
I guess Walmart figured that these scenes repeating daily was not worth whatever its strategy was.
A possible compromise is to allow Apple Pay to be a monopoly as long as it doesn't charge any fees.
How about I do you one better compromise: create a payment network that don't rely on private institutions rent seeking behavior, like Pix in Brazil.
granted i am a bit of schadenfreude at the thought of poor poor megabanks having to pay....fees...
Ultimately it comes out of their customers’ wallets.
n
Probably, but there is an upper limit on what people will be able to tolerate, everyone is aware of it and capitalism is trying to make products that meet it.
So, it’s not unlimited cost here.
The fact right now is that handling cash is more expensive than handling card- even with the fees, which is why Sweden, Estonia etc; are essentially cash-free countries.
At some point the fee’s will make you break-even I guess?
I would use my non-profit credit union Wallet if it meant less fees on their end.
Or Apple Pay can just be like Google Wallet is on Android? The alternative is not multiple apps.
How does it work on Google Wallet?
Article says Google wallet works just like Apple Pay, except they don’t charge a 0.15% fee.
There is already apple wallet where i can put any of my banking cards…
I have used both but I dont know the difference
Another alternative (in the US, at least) is tapping a piece of plastic instead of your phone and not inviting any of the tech giants into your transactions at all. What an unforced error, to shovel more of your data at them needlessly.
That is much better, but you're still paying visa/mastercard some percentage fee for a service which should be provided by e.g. the central bank.
Apple doesn't see individual transactions when Apple Pay is used at retail stores' tap-to-pay terminals. The secret card payment token is sent from the phone to the credit-card's issuing bank and bypasses Apple servers. In this way, using Apple Pay is more secure and private than plastic cards because the real card number details remains hidden from the merchant.
The iPhone does contact Apple servers to add a new card to the digital wallet. Apple servers then contacts the issuing bank to get the secret token the bank generates and then puts it in the digital wallet. Conceivably, the "add a new card to digital wallet" could also have been done without Apple in the middle but it would require a much more convoluted, less secure, and more user-hostile workflow to do it. (e.g. the end user would have to know what bank endpoint to contact, manually enter the long and cryptic digits of the secret token, or maybe scan a QR code on a computer screen that's vulnerable to interception and phishing.)
don’t be silly, apple displays me exact amount on the screen, in plain fucking text, after each transaction - that’s crazy you wrote this
Man, its amazing how confident you are about this, considering I know individual people who independently work at Visa, Mastercard, AND Apple, who have worked on mobile payments who independently confirm that none of them know any personal info and that its all pass-through.
So, are you sure you know what you are talking about?
Importantly, this provides a degree of protection from compromised PoS terminals. Ever since I switched to nearly exclusively using Apple Pay for physical shopping I’ve had no unauthorized charges, whereas back when I was still tapping, inserting, or swiping my card I’d need to call and get a card or two replaced almost every year.
yea, feels like tech giants do not have access to this already? they know where you are and what you do every second of every day, keeping away from ( while they know I was a target ) what was the amount on my receipt is really giving it to them :)
Now do developers.
I don't really care about any of Apple's business partners being upset about their business terms with Apple. Developers want a bigger cut, banks want a bigger cut, Foxconn wants a bigger cut.
My interests as an Apple user are aligned with Apple. But even if I wasn't an Apple user, market forces determine what the "fair" cut is for everyone.
This is the government's problem. I tend to be on the side of less government, but it is so obvious that payment facilitation should be a service provided by the government. The government is just allowing corporations to collect rents, because they are lazy and incompetent.
It's not a government problem, it's a competition problem. Fundamentally 1-3% is actually a very competitive rate for organizing the easy transfer of money and handling fraud. Merchants would rather the cost be free, and banks may want a larger slice of the pie, but until someone comes up with a better way of paying money for both sides this is the best we have. If government got involved all that could happen is fees would increase and then we'd miss out on future efficiency improvements and savings.
Remember CurrenC? The thing a bunch of them tried to make that failed horribly during test with no consumers liking it? If I remember a description it involved using an app where you had to scan a QR code, and then the point of sale terminal had to scan a QR code on your phone or something like that.
It was all so hilariously badly designed compared to tap and pay.
Pix and the other variants are the way to go for money transfer, it's just that these monopolies won't be happy to forfeit their easy money, both credit, banks as well as Apple. They are all fighting for monopolies, they must cease to exist for the good of the common folk.
Well, fortunately Pix is statedriven/stateenforced/strateregulated, so it contains some of the most important ingredients to become some type of standard - the only reason why Mastercard et.al. are so powerful is because this area/field of tech was long no recognised as critical/relevant enough.
Pix is doing exactly the right thing, as ECB/SEPA is as well.
Totally, and hopefully if standardisation isn't possible that we will at least see some form of integration between these systems, even if under an international transaction fee.
Working in this field:
The national co-integration is actually not a problem,asmost modern stacks are build on ISO20022 mainly, to the basis for co-integraion exists. Its just that attention on these topics is not that big. You could easily connect Brazil to the ECB with a correct setup.
I find this technology fascinating, I'm looking for different fields to apply myself to, if there's job openings for developing Pix here in Brazil I think I'll look into the tech more carefully.
Initially I was casually (didn’t dig into the issue) fine with Apple allowing only a single access to payment via NFC due to the opportunity for fraud, which was Apple’s justification.
But I haven’t heard of it happening with the wild-west Android NFC payments, much less widespread problems with the essentially unconstrained use of QR code payments on SE Asia (e.g. Alipay).
So as an iPhone user I’m happy for Apple’s lockdown going away. I just hope it doesn’t mean that in future I’ll need to install a dozen payment apps and have to figure out which when I buy things.
The only time the People have anything in our sick phony republic protected is when their interests happen to coincidentally align with those of an adversarial oligarch. Not interested in digging through the 15 layers of competing interests, corporate spin, lies, and economics to determine if that’s the case here but it’s sad in any case that stories like this are the only hope we the People have of getting any crumbs out of this system.
https://whatispix.com/
I hope we get tap to pay on GrapheneOS in the US soon. You can already use it in the EU with Curve and PayPal. It's a blocker for a lot of people.
Hacker News seems generally not interested in private payments or how terrible the banking system is, which is disappointing.
https://eylenburg.github.io/payments.htm
It is estimated Apple Pay does anywhere between $5T to $10T transaction per year. That is everything from Credit Card to Debit Card. If we average out at 0.1% per transaction over $5T, that is $5B per year.
The transaction itself doesn't touch any Apple severs. In case anyone is wondering if there is an operational cost. There is a set up cost though with the initial verification and sometimes Apple do charge a one time fee per card set up.
There is a privacy angle with using Apple Pay. But I am unsure how much info banks and network is not getting because of it.